The curse placed on Irving Pulling?

Theo R Cwithin

I cast "Baconstorm!"
The only thing I have issue with here is that any thinking, rational person -- especially a teacher who ostensibly teaches others how to think critically -- should view a claim of "X leads to satanism and witchcraft" with a very skeptical eye.

The mere claim is so outrageous that you shouldn't just grab a stack of flyers and start handing them out.
Unfortunately, critical thinking and rationality are not prerequisites to become an educator. Or (apparently) journalist or politician, for that matter.

Moreover, when dealing with "threats" like satanism or witchcraft; and their relation to religion and the "well-being of impressionable young minds", you've crossed over into a realm that for many people is inherently irrational.
 

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DragonLancer

Adventurer
I wasn't going to post this link here as I figured things were getting a little heated, but after PMing it to Bullgrit he has suggested I do since it answers his question about what the in game curse was. It's about 5 minutes in.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbcWKWp2UE4]YouTube - 60 Minutes on Dungeons & Dragons (1985) Part 1[/ame]
 

WizarDru

Adventurer
I wasn't going to post this link here as I figured things were getting a little heated, but after PMing it to Bullgrit he has suggested I do since it answers his question about what the in game curse was. It's about 5 minutes in.

It's worth noting here several things, IMHO.

1) Pulling comes off here the same way she did when this was new: a grieving mom who doesn't want to believe that her son was patently unhappy or troubled and is sure something DID this to him. The TSR PR rep right after here says EXACTLY THAT. And the data we have about her son indicates that he was DEEPLY troubled in the weeks just prior to his death. It's quite likely he was suddenly transformed from a normal teen to a schizophrenic...and Pulling was unable to deal with that.

2) Pulling didn't influence so much influence people as reinforce the bias of those who already agreed with her views. Case in point, Dr. Thomas Radecki, MEDIA WHORE, who apparently still has a website and is still peddling this same nonsense. It's just that no one is listening It's also worth noting that Radecki is not a child psychiatrist and if you look at his c.v., you can see a downward spiral of media appearances and career options. Eventually he lost his license for 5 years for inappropriate conduct with a patient, but apparently later got it restored. Today he'd be a typical 24-hour news 'expert'. If someone is deserving of ridicule, here's your guy.

3) This 60 minutes report certainly wasn't meant to be actually informative. The bias is pretty strong...not to smear D&D so much as to garner viewership. To that end, they misrepresent details for the sake of story. From The Escapist (RPGA advocacy website, not the video game magazine):

"BADD and other anti-game groups and individuals have often attempted to connect this tragedy to gaming - despite the absolute lack of evidence to that end, and weighty evidence to the contrary. Daniel had pled guilty to auto theft previously, and was facing sentencing within a month. He was described as being "extremely afraid of the criminal justice system," and did not want to return to the school, which would have been part of his deferred sentence.

The parents of both boys have always maintained that games had nothing to do with the suicide - even Lafayette Police Chief Larry Stallcup admitted initially that the game had no connection."


I guess I just don't understand why Pulling herself should be so singled out amongst so many idiots. At least she had grief to explain her behavior. Radecki has continued to peddle the same nonsense for decades, but no one seems to care about him. Hell, Pulling's only real influence is in that she made outrageous claims and people were willing to believe her without fact checking because they WANTED to believe her. She didn't get people put on trial except for the principal of her son's school...and I'm pretty sure his legal fees were paid for by the school board and the teacher's union...up until the point the case was thrown out.

And if you don't accept that Pulling's grief was a reasonable excuse (and that's a valid position to take), then why do Mary and Pat Dempsey get a pass? They co-wrote the BADD 'information booklet' that was ignored by all but the most desperate police investigations (again thanks to The Escapist). You might target Darren Molitor, author of the famous letter after his murder conviction...but then you'd have to note that he was surprised and confused that anyone would still believe his letter today, more than 20 years later, or that it was still being circulated.

it just seems odd to me to hold on to such bile for such a long time. The perfidy of these morons is well documented (thanks to the efforts of dudes like Michael Stackpole and Bill over at The Escapist, among others). Saying we need to spit on the shadow of someone who died in the 90s and who ironically had a hand in making D&D more popular (according to EGG), just seems silly.
 

Minicol

Adventurer
Supporter
Daniel had pled guilty to auto theft previously, and was facing sentencing within a month.


Good, now we can peg it all on the video games guys. It's all GTA fault, hear me ???;) :D

Oh, wait, I play GTA too ...:blush:

Hm. Still awfully sad. And not worth dwelling upon.
 

Minicol

Adventurer
Supporter
Lemme tell you ...

You had Mrs pulling in the USA. In France we had two speakshow celebrities : Mireille Dumas and Jacques Pradel.

Both had talk shows about the horrible effects of RPGs. How people climbed to the roofs of churches playing vampires, and then committed suicide by overdosing.

After the rage died down somewhat, it was revealed the deceased guy was a drug addict undergoind mental therapy after being dumped by his girlfriend, being broke and having failed his uni exams.

Also we had a cemetery profanation beoing framed on RPG players when it was later revealed to have been an act of the local National Front racist thugs drunken party.

Despite all the debunking I was asked for years if I climbed to the roofs of churches at night. And it was serious queries, not jokes. (Some might have wanted to join if I did)...

And I still think it's best forgotten, even if not forgiven.
 


Theo R Cwithin

I cast "Baconstorm!"
After watching that 60 Minutes clip again, I realized I'd forgotten about Dr. Radecki. Honestly, if there's ire to be focused on anyone, it's on him. He's the "authority" in the old "appeal to authority" arguments made back then. While Pat Pulling provided the tears and the soft, squishy emotional side, Radecki was the one that lent legitimacy to the crusade.

As WizarDru pointed out, he was (is) quite the hack-- and he's actually still at it, peddling his nonsense in other areas (albeit not terribly successfully, from the looks of it). Seems he's abandoned his crusade against D&D specifically: the last item on his list is from 1993. Apparently only 1e and 2e were dangerous. ;)
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
I guess I just don't understand why Pulling herself should be so singled out amongst so many idiots. At least she had grief to explain her behavior. Radecki has continued to peddle the same nonsense for decades, but no one seems to care about him. Hell, Pulling's only real influence is in that she made outrageous claims and people were willing to believe her without fact checking because they WANTED to believe her. She didn't get people put on trial except for the principal of her son's school...and I'm pretty sure his legal fees were paid for by the school board and the teacher's union...up until the point the case was thrown out.

And if you don't accept that Pulling's grief was a reasonable excuse (and that's a valid position to take), then why do Mary and Pat Dempsey get a pass? They co-wrote the BADD 'information booklet' that was ignored by all but the most desperate police investigations (again thanks to The Escapist). You might target Darren Molitor, author of the famous letter after his murder conviction...but then you'd have to note that he was surprised and confused that anyone would still believe his letter today, more than 20 years later, or that it was still being circulated.

it just seems odd to me to hold on to such bile for such a long time. The perfidy of these morons is well documented (thanks to the efforts of dudes like Michael Stackpole and Bill over at The Escapist, among others). Saying we need to spit on the shadow of someone who died in the 90s and who ironically had a hand in making D&D more popular (according to EGG), just seems silly.

So why is Pulling so singled out among such a gang of idiots? Same reason any single person gets remembered for what is essentially a team effort. Media focus because of her position. She got a lot more attention than most being founder and director of BADD just like the director of any organization almost always gains more media attention than other contributing pamphlet writers. The fact that she's got an element of tragedy in her story just made her better fodder for the press.

I'd have a hard time claiming she gets more attention among gamers than someone with as sustained and ridiculous a record as Jack Chick, though. He's kind of the supreme grand master compared to Pulling.

And if you want to credit guys like Stackpole for us knowing so much about these people and how to counter them, remember that his response was directly inspired by and referred to Pulling herself. We remember her, in part, because one of our best defenses was directed at her.

EDIT: And if that weren't enough, this particular thread was about the Pulling kid. Why would any of us bring up Chick or Radecki in this thread? They'd be off topic.
 

Ed_Laprade

Adventurer
I notice that Pulling's daughter said that her brother threatened to kill her if her told her about his playing D&D. Oh please! My brothers and I threatened to kill each other for things like that on a regular basis. Not that I'm blaming her. The only reason we didn't do that to our sister was because we knew she'd squeel! The point being that this was actually quite normal behavior (at least back then), and no one paid much attention to it unless someone actually attacked anyone. YMMV, etc.

Edit: I also stongly suspect that she was crying more because her parents 'encouraged' her to rat out her brother on National TV than anything else. She's the one I really feel sorry for.
 
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jonesy

A Wicked Kendragon
That's interesting. I'm really curious to hear about if/how RPG scares played out in other countries.
In Finland D&D and other similar games never really got that much attention in the media, because live role-playing was thrust into the spotlight fairly early. All the claims of satanism, violence, etc. were aimed at LARPers, almost exclusively. This didn't really have much effect, because LARPers here became quite organized (well, they'd have to be to play) and openly defended their hobby on national tv. The position of the media also helped a lot, because every time a story about RPGs and bad influences rose up, a different part of the media did a story on the way the opposers did their story, and the stories became more about how media was handling the stories than about the stories themselves. The media pretty much neutralized itself.
 

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