Casters Suck? Please explain.

[Miio]

I generally just lurk around the forums, but I finally have a question of my own.

I have been playing 4e since it came out, and have played almost every class at least once for funsies. My favorites are still Wizard and Cleric, but I have been noticing more and more that I am not having fun because I am not hitting anything. I am currently playing a "Shielding Cleric" in a campaign. With a +6 to hit at level 2, I can't hit the broad side of a barn. Our Sorcerer has a +10 to attack and the Monk has a +9 to attack. WHY? I have a +1 Holy Symbol and everything! Am I missing something? Can someone explain to me why my attack is so low or what the logical reason for underpowering Wizards and laser Clerics is?

1 (1/2 lvl)+ 4 (Wis)+ 1 (Item bonus) = +6

On the same thought, why does the Sorcerer get extra bonuses to attack and the Wizard doesn't?

 

[RangerWickett]

It sounds like someone is misinterpreting some rules here. Your attack bonus sounds right and balanced. +6 at 2nd level for an implement attack is fine. You might be able to push it up 2 more if you had a 20 Wisdom and you took an implement focus feat.

Sorcerers get bonus to damage, but not to their attack rolls. Maybe someone is adding an extra stat to the attack rolls, because a +10 to-hit with an implement attack should be impossible at your level.

Alternately, maybe they're adding the 'proficiency bonus' weapons get on Weapon keyword attacks. Some classes (like sorcerers) can use weapons like they were implements. But if a power doesn't have the Weapon keyword, you don't add the proficiency bonus to attack rolls.

...

(That proficiency bonus, by the way, is a terrible rule in my opinion. They did it because they wanted to make Armor Class and Reflex separate defenses, and have AC be higher. To keep the % chance of hitting the same, they had to give Weapon attacks a higher attack bonus. I think a better solution would have been to just have Fort, Ref, and Will. Then weapons wouldn't need a bonus to-hit. Armor would just give you a couple points of damage resistance.)

 

[Miio]

So, the reason for lower attacks on casters is that we are attacking the lower defenses? They really aren't that much lower very often, though. :/

I will check with the Sorcerer on his attack. I knew it was fishy!

 

[TerraDave]

+8 should be the max with a +1 item?

 

[Incenjucar]

What powers are you using against what enemies?

Have you considered taking an Expertise feat?

 

[bganon]

The Monk is fishy too. Monks use weapons as implements, they do not get to add the proficiency bonus to their attack. A 2nd level monk should be in the +6 to +8 range, +9 should really only possible with very heavy optimization.

 

[Incenjucar]

+8 should be the max with a +1 item?

Yeah, a +9 to hit a NAD is the best you can get without situational bonuses or class features.

+1 Level 2
+1 Magic Item
+1 Expertise
+1 Accurate
+5 20 Ability Score

 

[webrunner]

You know what's wierd? A lot of monsters have higher Ref then AC. That shouldn't even be possible without a direct Ref bonus.

 

[Miio]

The Monk is fishy too. Monks use weapons as implements, they do not get to add the proficiency bonus to their attack. A 2nd level monk should be in the +6 to +8 range, +9 should really only possible with very heavy optimization.

I know that the Monk uses Unarmed. She gets a +3 Prof. with her unarmed fists. Is that not applied to her attacks?

What powers are you using against what enemies?

Have you considered taking an Expertise feat?

The powers I have that actually use attack:

At-Wills-
Astral Seal (vs Ref)
Sacred Flame (vs Ref)

Encounters-
Bane (vs Will)

Daily-
Beacon of Hope (vs Will)

As far as taking the feat, I have two feats right now, and I really enjoy them. I may switch out "Defensive Grace" for the Implement Expertise or whatever. My other feat is Pacifist Healer.

 

[mneme]

Actually, you can throw all your resources into the pot and get a +9 hit bonus as a monk (+5 dex, +1 level, +1 implement, +1 Accurate implement, +1 Staff Expertise).

But then, you can do the same thing as a cleric, too -- +5 wis, +1 level, +1 symbol, Proficiency (Accurate Holy Symbol -- or Undeniable if you're mostly attacking Will and your prayers usually do damage), Versitile Expertise = +9. If you're restricted to PH1 prayers, you have some incentive to bump up your hit chance as a laser cleric--as your at wills both target reflex, so you'll have problems hitting lurkers and others with a high reflex (but should be able to easily hit brutes). If not, you can mix it up by grabbing Gaze of Defiance instead of Lance of Faith -- so you can use Gaze against foes who have weaker wills, and Sacred Flame against slower, more strong willed foes. Or mix a ranged attack (probably Sacred Flame, as SF is awesome) with a weapon attack that's based on Wisdom; there are a lot to choose from now. There's even the super-accurate Storm Hammer, which gives up riders for being a weapon vs Fort attack.

You shouldn't have any problems at all hitting as a wizard, frankly. Wizards usually target 2-3 foes with each attack and have relatively few reasons to not have an Int of 20, so even though their hit bonuses are the usual implement sorts, they can easily match the hit rates (though not the damage--usually) of a Ranger. Grab Enlarge Spell when you can, as that makes it much easier to get multiple enemies in a burst, and don't fear hitting a friend if it means hitting two more enemies (particularly minions).

I've generally found the character types that I have problems hitting with are my crossbow artificer (as I didn't have the feats to get really accurate between making sure I could use my bow without losing actions) -- particularly in comparison with my blaster wizard and avenger, who very rarely go a turn without hitting something.

Ah, a pacifist. that explains a few things, as does your load out of all attacks vs reflex. Keep in mind that as a pacifist, your job isn't really to hit stuff or to do damage. but keep mind that Astral Seal is a Wis + 2 vs reflex -- so your attack on that even as-is should be +8.