WIR S1 Tomb of Horrors [SPOILERS!! SPOILERS EVERYWHERE!!]‏

[Stoat]

Up for ceiling, down for floor? Pretty simple logic there.

I agree that this is a reasonable way to look at Area 7, but it seems to me like the kind of interpretation that's a a lot easier to come up with in retrospect than during play.

I'm trying to put myself in the position of a player who isn't reading along with the module during the game. I've been teleported into an empty room. There are no exits, but it's not immediately apparent that I did something wrong to get here. (after all, the poor bastards who jumped into the GGD are dead, I'm ahead of them) I don't have any idea where I am in relation to Area 5. Above? Below? North? West? Am I on the same level of the dungeon?

So how do I know that up toward the ceiling is going to be better than down toward the floor? After all, there's already been one collapsing ceiling trap. For all I know "up" will cause the ceiling to crash down on me while "down" will open a passage in the floor.

Obviously, spells like Augury might help me. Good dungeoneering like that exhibited by the players in the thread Gentlegamer linked to will save me if I screw up. But is there any way to figure out that up is the right way to go without resorting to (a) dumb luck or (b) magic?

 

[Raven Crowking]

Removed

 

[Bullgrit]

Up for ceiling, down for floor? Pretty simple logic there.

Yes, quite simple logic -- when you know the answer.

The last time in this Tomb that someone messed with a lever, it opened a pit trap under them.

Before that, just opening a door released a ton of rocks on the party's heads

And then when they followed the clue message to go through the arch, you ended up in this Forsaken Prison.

As any adventurer would have learned by the 7th room of the Tomb: it's dangerous to mess around with *anything* in this dungeon. But, of course, it's simple logic to just push the three levers up to open the escape hatch above. An escape hatch that you'd have no way of knowing is there -- because magical detection doesn't work in this room. I would think the "simple logic" when presented with three levers in this particular dungeon would be, "don't touch anything".

Obviously, spells like Augury might help me.

If the trapped PC is a cleric, and not a thief, or a fighter, or a monk, or a magic-user, or a paladin, or a ranger, or an illusionist, or an assassin. And even if the trapped soul is a cleric, with augury prepared, there are three rods with at least four directions each; augury only answers one question. Plus, even a 14th level cleric has a 16% of not getting an answer.

And might a DM interpret an augury spell as "a magical means of detection" that doesn't work in this room? Isn't this whole dungeon supposed to test the *Player's* skill? Letting the Player rely on his character's powers and level kind of cheats the concept, doesn't it?

Bullgrit

 

[Gentlegamer]

Here's how the caller of the group from Origins I reacted to the Forsaken Prison:

We found ourselves inside a 10' square, 30' high room, without doors and possessed of 3 levers. At this point I announced that we were all driving spikes into the walls and standing on them.

edit:
That's an example of good dungeoneering referenced by stoat above.

There's a very good reason that skilled, successful players carry spikes, marbles, 10 foot poles, and the like.

 

[Bullgrit]

We found ourselves inside a 10' square, 30' high room

The room is only 10' high by the text. I don't mention this to be crazy nitpicky, but to highlight an example of how a DM's description can have potentially radical affect on PC success/failure with this module. There's at least a couple issues I see with describing the room as 30' tall rather than 10' tall.

1- My first thought would be that the extra height is to increase the damage of something falling on me. Surely a legitimate concern in this Tomb. So that would distract my caution upwards rather than downwards.

2- The logistics of getting a party up to a hatch 30' above is more complicated than just going up 10'. Ten feet up, you can get out simply by getting on a comrade's shoulders, going up, and then reaching back down to pull them up. Thirty feet up would require ropes and a way to anchor it above. Nothing insurmountable, of course, but definitely more work than 10'.

Both of these change the scenario by a non-trivial amount. Especially in a tournament situation.

Also, isn't it interesting how a party clever enough to use spikes to stand on to avoid a potential fall weren't clever enough to avoid getting sent to the Forsaken Prison in the first place?

Bullgrit

 

[Stoat]

Both of these change the scenario by a non-trivial amount. Especially in a tournament situation.

I think the little changes between the con report and the module as published are pretty interesting. For example, it's notable to me that in the con report, the mist in Area 5 is described as blue, while no color is specified in the published module. There's a lot of color imagery in the Tomb, and several fairly dangerous encounters later on are marked with blue objects. "Shun green" sure, but is blue good, bad or both? Also, IIRC the mist in the arch at Area 10 is orange. If it was a different color than the arch in Area 5, that would/could be a clue to leave it alone.

Also, isn't it interesting how a party clever enough to use spikes to stand on to avoid a potential fall weren't clever enough to avoid getting sent to the Forsaken Prison in the first place?

Acererak doesn't give much in the way of clues to describe the proper way of making it through Area 5. In fact, I'd say there are really no clues at all.

 

[Bullgrit]

Don't stop now, we're only 7 areas in.

Bullgrit

 

[amerigoV]

Also, isn't it interesting how a party clever enough to use spikes to stand on to avoid a potential fall weren't clever enough to avoid getting sent to the Forsaken Prison in the first place?

Bullgrit

Players are brilliant when you least expect it...and dense beyond belief when the answer is obvious!

 

[Beginning of the End]

IMO: The Forsaken Prison is obviously a punishment room. You get here by failing to solve Area 5. It's a pretty boring place. No clues, no brightly colored mosaics, no picture -- just them 3 levers. If there's a way to solve the lever "puzzle" other than trial and error, I'd like to hear it. As far as I can tell, there are no clues or hints or anything to guide the players.

Again, there's no need to "solve" this by figuring out which way to flip the levers. All you need to "solve" this chamber is to recognize potential risks and then mitigate against them:

- Augury
- Flight
- Pitons in the walls (that's clever)
- Holding onto the levers as you pull them
- Standing on a tenser's floating disc

All kinds of stuff.

 

[Bullgrit]

- Augury
- Flight
- Pitons in the walls (that's clever)
- Holding onto the levers as you pull them
- Standing on a tenser's floating disc

Again, the answers are based on already knowing what the danger is.

Augury has been addressed -- one question is not much use when there are 12? possible orientations.

The other solutions are all based on the knowledge (expectation) that the danger is a pit trap. What if the ceiling comes down on you? What if the levers zap you with electricity? What if poison darts shoot you when you move a lever? What if the room fills with water? Etc.

What if the solution to this room is to leave the levers alone, completely?

Heck, what if the pit below is a safe chute that slides the PCs down to the next step of the Tomb? Some would laugh at their paranoia when they work so hard to not fall down the pit.

Yes, the traps and tricks are avoidable *if you already know what they are*. But how can PCs in the adventure solve/avoid the traps if they haven't read the text themselves? That's the question. What clues are there for the PCs to have something to think on besides just using lucky guesses or blind faith?

As a module proposed as a thinking man's adventure, there must be some clues or hints or information to think on. What are they?

Bullgrit