[Very Long] Combat as Sport vs. Combat as War: a Key Difference in D&D Play Styles...

[S'mon]

. And I believe Rock to Mud followed by Mud to Rock was the common tactic.

That's two 6th level spells, only useable vs non-flying/levitating foes at range, who are standing on unworked stone. In the hands of any decent DM it's a moderately effective but highly limited tactic.

I mean, did you guys even notice that 1e Harm is also a 6th level spell, no save, that reduces target to 1d4 hp?

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

That's two 6th level spells, only useable vs non-flying/levitating foes at range, who are standing on unworked stone. In the hands of any decent DM it's a moderately effective but highly limited tactic.

Well, when your campaign is mostly dungeon crawling and flight/levitation was possessed by less than 10% of your enemies, it becomes very useful. Sure, not EVERY time. But there were other tricks you could pull the rest of the time.

I mean, did you guys even notice that 1e Harm is also a 6th level spell, no save, that reduces target to 1d4 hp?

We did. But it wasn't usable by Wizards. Plus, it used up the slot you could prepare Heal in. Plus, as cheesy as the above tactic was, it was considered 10x cheesier to cast Harm. It was so obviously overpowered that even the other players at the table would be saying "Really? Harm? Sigh...so we beat this enemy, let's move on."

What it came down to was that Harm got around the hitpoint system as well, since it didn't have a damage amount, it worked equally well no matter how powerful the enemy was.

 

[S'mon]

Yet, years later when they tell the story, it's still to make fun of me for not planning ahead...
...As for ego, I think some DMs are TOO neutral and selfless. The goal of the DM is to make sure EVERYONE, including the DM is having fun. If the players have fun in a way that makes the game no fun for the DM, then it needs to be changed. I refuse to be a martyr just to be the DM. It already takes a lot of work, if anything I have a little MORE right to have fun than the players.

Also, it isn't about ego. It's about spending 3 hours writing up the stats of an enemy, 6 months of playing time building suspense and tension to the final meeting of the ultimate boss only to have him die under a pile of rocks while he's in the middle of a monologue about how the PCs are doomed. It's a waste of time and effort for me.

Personally, I may be (indeed am) a bit of a killer DM, but I love it when my players trash my BBEGs. Just as I'm ruthless to the PCs, I'm ruthless to the NPCs too. Find a way to kill Graz'zt in one round and take no damage, I'll congratulate you.

Mind you I almost never take 3 hours on a stat block. The need for that kind of thing helped turn me off high level 3e. I will take 30 minutes on a 4e stat block now and then, though.

 

[S'mon]

Well, when your campaign is mostly dungeon crawling and flight/levitation was possessed by less than 10% of your enemies, it becomes very useful. Sure, not EVERY time. But there were other tricks you could pull the rest of the time.

We did. But it wasn't usable by Wizards. Plus, it used up the slot you could prepare Heal in. Plus, as cheesy as the above tactic was, it was considered 10x cheesier to cast Harm. It was so obviously overpowered that even the other players at the table would be saying "Really? Harm? Sigh...so we beat this enemy, let's move on."

What it came down to was that Harm got around the hitpoint system as well, since it didn't have a damage amount, it worked equally well no matter how powerful the enemy was.

Well... I guess you clearly don't like Combat As War! For me, high level 1e AD&D always worked very well, I thought the mutual vulnerability of the classes was very well balanced. Dirty tactics were the norm, we still remember the demigod PC who was getting slaughtered by Wotan the Hanged God, so cast a whole bunch of delayed blast fireballs timed to go off at ground zero just as Wotan reached him, destroying the physical forms of both deities. IMC Harm was SOP for Clerics, and Rock to Mud too weak to bother with.

 

[S'mon]

Well, when your campaign is mostly dungeon crawling and flight/levitation was possessed by less than 10% of your enemies, it becomes very useful.

BTW, just to be clear, are you including 20th level Archmages there? Surely they'd all have Fly or similar? And unless you somehow ambush them they'll have it precast - in fact they're exremely hard to even reach in the first place. An M-U 20 standing on the ground in front of a high level PC group is just committing suicide.

I wonder if I can summon [MENTION=326]Upper_Krust[/MENTION] to reminisce about our old campaign. It seems to have been almost the Platonic opposite of yours.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

BTW, just to be clear, are you including 20th level Archmages there? Surely they'd all have Fly or similar? And unless you somehow ambush them they'll have it precast - in fact they're exremely hard to even reach in the first place. An M-U 20 standing on the ground in front of a high level PC group is just committing suicide.

Well, there was a slightly different situation, but yes. I ran a 3e adventure out of Dragon Magazine once where there is a nearly immortal 20th level Archmage who is excavating a dungeon. He is far enough away from all the other combat encounters and so obsessed with his excavating that he wouldn't go to investigate anything that happened anyways. He spent his entire day reading stuff written on the rocks in this cave and went to his temporary bedroom a room a way to sleep.

The PCs, as it happens killed the encounter right before him the day before hand, teleported out then rested for the night and teleported back. They had no idea they were planning on facing the leader of all the forces they had fought the next day. They teleported in, walked down the hallway and ran into the archmage. Then proceeded to kill him in one round.

I believe they didn't need any dirty tricks at all, however. He might have been able to get away, but he didn't have time to cast most of his defenses, which he didn't regularly put up(including flight) since he was 10 levels below the ground in a dungeon very few people even knew existed protected by a huge number of minions. But he was so obsessed he hadn't noticed that over the last 2 weeks(the PCs fought 2-3 encounters, teleported out, rested and came back the next day), they were all killed off. Even if he did, his list of spells in the adventure didn't leave him with much of a defense.

But my point is, should there exist a way to bypass all of someone's abilities so easily. SHOULD a Wizard who is standing on the ground near a high level party be as good as dead? Or should, by the nature of being 20th level have defenses and abilities to protect himself from instant death regardless of the situation? Shouldn't level be a judge of how difficult it is to defeat someone? And that tactics should give you bonuses to make a battle easier, but not reverse the situation to make it downright simple?

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Well... I guess you clearly don't like Combat As War! For me, high level 1e AD&D always worked very well, I thought the mutual vulnerability of the classes was very well balanced. Dirty tactics were the norm, we still remember the demigod PC who was getting slaughtered by Wotan the Hanged God, so cast a whole bunch of delayed blast fireballs timed to go off at ground zero just as Wotan reached him, destroying the physical forms of both deities. IMC Harm was SOP for Clerics, and Rock to Mud too weak to bother with.

Don't get me wrong, Harm became SOP at high enough levels too...despite the fact that everyone thought it was cheesy. It was too effective NOT to use it.

The problem was, that it often WASN'T mutual. The high level Wizard in the group could instantly kill the enemy with a dirty tactic. But the Fighter was forced to just make attacks which would take him 5 or 6 rounds to kill enemies. An evil Wizard might be able to pull some of the same dirty tricks, but they normally only worked against the PCs non-casters who didn't have a defense against it.

But most of the enemies we'd fight would be mindless monsters or monsters without hands or spells. Which reduced them down to the level of fighters when it came to dirty tricks. Add to that the fact that most of the enemies were in the middle of some powerful ritual when the PCs walked in or trying to rush to escape their collapsing compound or trying to get away with the MacGuffin that they often weren't ready for a confrontation with the PCs, giving the PCs the advantage in dirty tricks. That's if they were even aware the PCs were going to arrive. And when they are aware...are they aware of the exact minute the PCs are going to arrive to cast their round/level spells. The PCs knew the exact second they were going to open the door, so they could have all those spells up.

The advantage always goes to the PCs without metagaming the crap out of the enemies....or spending a LOT of time and effort coming up with a plan to defeat the PCs. I ran prewritten adventures because I didn't have the time to come up with stuff like that. I rely on the rules to balance the game so I don't have to.

 

[herrozerro]

I believe they didn't need any dirty tricks at all, however. He might have been able to get away, but he didn't have time to cast most of his defenses, which he didn't regularly put up(including flight) since he was 10 levels below the ground in a dungeon very few people even knew existed protected by a huge number of minions. But he was so obsessed he hadn't noticed that over the last 2 weeks(the PCs fought 2-3 encounters, teleported out, rested and came back the next day), they were all killed off. Even if he did, his list of spells in the adventure didn't leave him with much of a defense.

I find it hard to beleive that the party did this over the course of 2-3 weeks and he never noticed. or at the very least no minion ran up screaming aobut the killers sweeping through the dungeon.

 

[S'mon]

But my point is, should there exist a way to bypass all of someone's abilities so easily. SHOULD a Wizard who is standing on the ground near a high level party be as good as dead?

Well, yeah. Such an easy kill shouldn't generate much XP, though.

I once ran a 'Conquest of Alphatia' war campaign. The solo PC was a grunt in the Thyatian Legion, invading civil-war racked Alphatia, Mystara. Alphatia has 1,000 ridiculously powerful 20th level Archmages (36th level in BECMI) - geniuses no doubt, enormous magical power certainly, but most of them had never seen combat. Plucky 4th level Thyatian Fighters were breaking down tower doors and ganking M-U 20s all over the place. It was great. With the 1e XP table the XP awards, divided among a few dozen surviving legionaries, were pretty moderate.

OTOH if your M-U 20 is actually supposed to be combat experienced, to have come up the hard way, PC style, then he's not going to behave like the one in that adventure.

 

[S'mon]

The problem was, that it often WASN'T mutual. The high level Wizard in the group could instantly kill the enemy with a dirty tactic. But the Fighter was forced to just make attacks which would take him 5 or 6 rounds to kill enemies. .

Is that in 3e? 3e's balance is broken. In 1e when the Cleric is casting Harm (if he can get it off, not easy), the Fighter is wearing his girdle of storm giant strength and attacking 5/2 (3/round for Cavalier) for godawful damage, they can easily kill an M-U in one round, other classes in 2.