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D&D 1E 1e Play Report

Your intent may have been correct but your scale was off. It makes your point much more strongly to say, "In 3e orcs are worth 300 XP but in 1e they are only worth 18.5 XP each." Unfortunately, the strength of that point depends on several problems.

I was off because I had forgotten that orcs were CR 1/2 instead of CR 1. So 3e orcs are worth 150 XP to a level 1-3 PC instead of 300. In 1e they are worth 20 XP on the top end. One orc fighting a lone level 1 3e PC might kill him and would be a difficult encounter. The same can be said of a lone 1e PC against a 1e orc.

A 1e ghoul is worth on average 84 XP each, so the ratio here is less than 4:1 rather than the 30:1 of your original flawed assertion. That still seems like a really big number that makes your point strongly though; however, we must also note that in 1e you also got XP for treasure and I happen to know (because I did the math long ago) that on average each ghoul has this much treasure:

173 cp, 67 sp, 48 ep, 38 gp, 10% chance of 1 gem, 4% chance of 1 jewelry, 0.7% chance of 1 magic weapon, 9.6% chance of 1 scroll.

I never said you'd have to kill 30 ghouls in 1e to equal 1 in 3e. I made that comment about orcs and have since explained my error, here and in a previous post. I am aware that far less than 30 1e ghouls equal 1 ghoul in 3e.

For what it's worth, the ghoul encounters in ToEE look like this:

6 Ghouls, worth 95, 91, 89, 85, 81, 77 XP each respectively. That is a total of 518 XP. They have 187 cp, 81 sp, 5 ep and 61 gp and a suit of Elfin Chainmail that the module states can be sold for 500 gp. The monetary wealth that these six ghouls have is worth approximately 73 gp not counting the Elfin Chain. If that is kept, there is no equivalent XP award as it is not a magic item and the rules make no provision for XP being awarded for finding Elfin Chain. But lets assume that the PCs sell the armor. They now have amassed 1091 XP from this encounter. My group consists of six PCs in ToEE. They each would get 182 XP for this encounter. If they didn't sell the armor, they'd each get about 99 XP for this encounter.

The next room over contains four more ghouls. They are worth 93, 91, 85, and 83 XP respectively. They have a total of 108 cp, 92 sp, 37 gp, and 7 pp. Thus they are worth 435 XP total, or 73 XP each for my party of six.

In the next room are two ghasts. They are worth significantly more, 282 and 270 XP respectively. Sadly they have no treasure. Thus they are worth 92 XP each to my party of six.

So after these three encounters in the published ToEE, my PCs each received 264 XP. They kept the Elfin Chainmail. Had they sold it they would have grabbed 347 XP.

When you are level 4 and need anywhere from 10,000 to 20,000 to reach level five, 264 XP for killing 10 ghouls and 2 ghasts and taking their stuff doesn't seem like all that much. And the 2 ghast encounter was rough on my group. Four of the PCs were paralyzed before the other two finished off the last ghast.

As far as what you assigned as the "average" treasure of a 1e ghoul, I dunno. I am only going by three encounters in ToEE that we have played through in the past few sessions.
 
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The whole frequency and amount of XP awards, particularly as it relates to the published modules, in 1e is a very interesting topic and probably deserves its own thread.

On Dragonsfoot, someone did a calculation for how much XP is there for the taking in the G1, G2 and G3 modules.

In G1, it was 348,346 total XP potential. Assuming a party of six, that would be 58,058 XP each. That is enough to level once for most classes, with the thief coming close to leveling twice. Of course this depends on starting level but if the PCs start G1 with around 100,000 XP each, they would end at 158,058 and all would have leveled once.

At that point, how fast or slow that ends up being comes down to how many sessions it takes to complete G1. Having not run that module for many years, I would have to guess maybe four or five sessions on average, assuming 5-6 hour sessions. Some could probably do it in as few as three or as many as six depending on a variety of factors.

The relevant threads are here:
Dragonsfoot • View topic - G1-3 Against the Giants XP --- SPOILERS!
Dragonsfoot • View topic - Experience totals from the G series modules?
 

Celebrim

Legend
The whole frequency and amount of XP awards, particularly as it relates to the published modules, in 1e is a very interesting topic and probably deserves its own thread.

On Dragonsfoot, someone did a calculation for how much XP is there for the taking in the G1, G2 and G3 modules.

In G1, it was 348,346 total XP potential. Assuming a party of six, that would be 58,058 XP each. That is enough to level once for most classes, with the thief coming close to leveling twice. Of course this depends on starting level but if the PCs start G1 with around 100,000 XP each, they would end at 158,058 and all would have leveled once.

At that point, how fast or slow that ends up being comes down to how many sessions it takes to complete G1. Having not run that module for many years, I would have to guess maybe four or five sessions on average, assuming 5-6 hour sessions. Some could probably do it in as few as three or as many as six depending on a variety of factors.

The relevant threads are here:
Dragonsfoot • View topic - G1-3 Against the Giants XP --- SPOILERS!
Dragonsfoot • View topic - Experience totals from the G series modules?

Quasqueton does a more detailed breakdown than that in the thread I linked to earlier.

The relevant post is here.

Detailed discussion is in the thread itself. Note that name level is about when you start to see differences in the leveling rate between the two editions. In my opinion, this is as much a factor of the fact that XP and treasure rewards start to flatten out as it is that the gap between levels has become so large. Unlike 3e, 1e tends to treat 10th level and beyond as something of an 'end game'.
 

That Darn DM

First Post
I'm not going to bother replying to the entire thread, though it is food for thought. Both sides have some good points and got me thinking on my own game.

I've been running a 1e game for a while now with my little brother and his friends. These are kids that are more used to 3.5, Pathfinder, and 4e, but they've been really enjoying the game so far, as have I. I'd just like to give my opinion from a neophyte 1e DM's perspective to this thread. You can blow this off as whatever you please, I just had to reply as the thread is compelling. I'll only speak on the observations of the first post:

1.) Graph paper and miniatures worked out fine with us. 1 inch equals 10 feet and movement is all pretty clear in the PHB. When it came to flair (such as PCs bouncing off of tables and using chandeliers like Robin Hood) I had them make basic ability checks if it seemed plausible... with proper +2 and -2 to their roll if it were a detriment or benefit, respectively. It wasn't perfect, but I just took it case by case. When it came to awkward situations set in the rules, I gave, at most, five minutes of true deliberation and it was settled. I did the same thing for third edition when it came to the odd rules, so it was natural for me. There are many things in 3e that just aren't covered and I wouldn't want them to be. Personal opinion, I suppose.

2.) Again, I feel an ability check if it's really needed. Figure the appropriate ability, roll a d20, add or subtract modifiers to the roll (or ability if you want to make it easier), and if it rolls under: success. That's how I solved all my physical challenges if they were plausible and provided some opportunity for failure; especially if they were in a hurry to do something. Social issues, I made them role-play. If they wanted to roll it instead of worry about being in character, I allowed that, but I punished it. My wife says that's somewhat unfair, which I can see, but this particular group I wanted to cultivate their characters (as did they when they came to me) so there're reasons for that. I don't take charisma into account as much as I should. Usually, I only remember it whenever they are really struggling, kind of like a safety net for them to fall onto so they can mulligan a number of times. Whatever, you get the idea. It worked for us.

3.) I felt this at first. I really did, but as I learned how the game ought to be played and really cultivated my imagination and my oral skills, this issue you're describing, which I think I understand, became a non-issue. We had a thief looking for traps. I didn't just let him roll for traps, but let him poke around and figure how the trap mechanics worked. I had an image in my head and I'd try to describe it. As a DM, I learned I was the conduit for the player's world. They didn't know what kind of traps are in the world, so they what I told them was imperative. I think what hurts this is the lack of skill system, as PCs could just roll on a chart to see how well they do. As long as you ensure to stick to a cohesive, logical idea to your games: this shouldn't be a problem. Foreshadowing helps amazingly well with this as well. I taught the thief what kind of traps are out in the world when he made it to town to "level up". He'd be exposed to more of the world and trained to be better. This came with experience after a few months of AD&D and I've read that you've played the game for a long while beforehand, so don't feel I'm lecturing. I'm merely telling you what worked for my game and for my players.

4.) I love imbalance. I really do. I like the feeling that some players are more geared for combat than others and this WOULD be a problem for 4e, but because 1e provides more freedom and offers a chance for players to really think outside the box rather than just worry on their stats, that imbalance can be easily met and demolished by smart, creative players.

These aren't criticisms on your views, just a measure on where I stand as a somewhat newbie DM (been playing one AD&D game for 6 months now). I really am sorry you didn't get as much fun out of it as me and my family did. Any tabletop session that results in resentment for a game is a failure on the game's part, but I do hope that my views and ways of playing the game might help any future delving back to 1e. If not, then thanks for reading anyway!
 

Water Bob

Adventurer
We had a thief looking for traps. I didn't just let him roll for traps, but let him poke around and figure how the trap mechanics worked. I had an image in my head and I'd try to describe it. As a DM, I learned I was the conduit for the player's world.

Exactly!




I think what hurts this is the lack of skill system, as PCs could just roll on a chart to see how well they do.

A skill system standardizes throws. Many do not realize this, but that standarization hurts a creative game.

Instead, forget one-size-fits all and allow for GM customization of a situation on the spot!

I believe it lends itself better to a more creative, more visual game where players focus more on the story being described to them rather than on dice throws. I'm merely telling you what worked for my game and for my players.
 

That Darn DM

First Post
A skill system standardizes throws. Many do not realize this, but that standarization hurts a creative game.

Instead, forget one-size-fits all and allow for GM customization of a situation on the spot!

Oh, I'm just speaking on why most people find that aspect for AD&D weak. I haven't come across a skill system I particularly liked in exception to Thousand Suns... maybe. Skill systems have always been strange to me. I think of a Roman warrior (brain-fart on the specific word for them). They learned a plethora of skills that was generally accepted. Fighters I picture the same way. The rest I craft with the PCs according to backgrounds. If they can come up with a reasonable explanation on why they would know something, I'll let them roll for it. There is a judgement in play, but it does become second nature the more you do it to a point.

It's almost like the difference between automatic and manual vehicles. Automatic, you just hit the pedal and you go, though there is a lack of acceleration. Manual is much more about the driver. You have to feel the RPMs and the vehicle and adjust the automobile accordingly. It's faster, but a different animal and it's a learned skill.
 

Water Bob

Adventurer
Oh, I'm just speaking on why most people find that aspect for AD&D weak. I haven't come across a skill system I particularly liked in exception to Thousand Suns... maybe. Skill systems have always been strange to me. I think of a Roman warrior (brain-fart on the specific word for them). They learned a plethora of skills that was generally accepted. Fighters I picture the same way. The rest I craft with the PCs according to backgrounds. If they can come up with a reasonable explanation on why they would know something, I'll let them roll for it. There is a judgement in play, but it does become second nature the more you do it to a point.

It's almost like the difference between automatic and manual vehicles. Automatic, you just hit the pedal and you go, though there is a lack of acceleration. Manual is much more about the driver. You have to feel the RPMs and the vehicle and adjust the automobile accordingly. It's faster, but a different animal and it's a learned skill.

With skill systems, though, since they are one-size-fits-all, they sometimes favor a weaker choice for a throw when a GM could make up something on the spot that exactl fits the need.

Most coversations about task systems vs. DM customization assume that the DM consistently makes undesireable choices.

It depends on the DM, of course, but I say a good DM without a task system is better than any DM with task system.
 

Celebrim

Legend
I'd just like to give my opinion from a neophyte 1e DM's perspective to this thread. You can blow this off as whatever you please, I just had to reply as the thread is compelling.

Welcome to the club. The world needs more DMs, and especially good ones.

1.) Graph paper and miniatures worked out fine with us. 1 inch equals 10 feet and movement is all pretty clear in the PHB.

Honestly, I never used miniatures in my whole career as a 1e DM. Some DMs favored them, but IME they too easily broke emersion and caused players to imagine the scene as if they were looking down on it, rather than from the eyes of the character. That said, for a truly complicated fight, they can aid clarity and even sometimes dramatic tension. In both editions I try to break them out only when I have to. In some cases, this depends on your players. Some players have excellent spatial reasoning and can easily imagine a scene from your description; others need more help.

When it came to flair (such as PCs bouncing off of tables and using chandeliers like Robin Hood) I had them make basic ability checks if it seemed plausible... with proper +2 and -2 to their roll if it were a detriment or benefit, respectively. It wasn't perfect, but I just took it case by case.

This seems like a perfectly reasonable approach to me. I would like to say though that this is a very much post-3e approach to the 1e game. I would have been very surprised if anyone in 1982 had that sort of consistant, "Say yes or roll an ability check.", approach. In my experience, it took a long time for this approach to develop. More usually, the DM simply relied on his fiat assessment of what was reasonable or realistic (an idea at the time suffered from fetishisation), and said what happened. Fortune mechanics were applied very ununiformly, and often without the DM understanding clearly what sort of probability he was assigning either absolutely or relative to a person of 'average ability'. Probably the most common fortune mechanic at the time was a straight percentage chance, unrelated to player ability. Gradually, asking for a saving throw (save vs. petrification being common) or an ability check rose to more prominance.

I'm perfectly ok with that, but the more I used ability checks and saves vs. petrification in my session to resolve propositions, the more I wondered why I was playing 1e instead of 3e since I felt like I was borrowing a weaker and clunkier version of 3e's generalized fortune mechanic. When I started the session, I was using them almost not at all - drawing on the way I DMed say circa 1992 or so. But the longer the session went and the more frustrated I became in one sense - and here I better pause to say that though I was frustrated with the system I wasn't necessarily frustrated with the session which was a lot of fun - the more I found myself thinking in a very 3e way about problems and just adopting 1e style mechanics.

There are many things in 3e that just aren't covered and I wouldn't want them to be. Personal opinion, I suppose.

No, not really. I don't think that that is an opinion at all; I believe that that is a fact. There are indeed many things in 3e that aren't covered in the rules, and it is important for the DM and players to be aware of that. One way for any game to become a bit dysfunctional is for the participants to mistake the system for being complete, because typically what that means is that they've lost the ability to think outside of the box the rules have put them in. For my part, I saw this mistake come out in the design of supplements to 3e where the designers - recognizing the rules incompleteness of 3e - tried to fill in the holes in entirely hidebound ways that made the problem worse.

Again, I feel an ability check if it's really needed. Figure the appropriate ability, roll a d20, add or subtract modifiers to the roll (or ability if you want to make it easier), and if it rolls under: success. That's how I solved all my physical challenges if they were plausible and provided some opportunity for failure; especially if they were in a hurry to do something.

Except now you are playing almost straight up '3e lite' with a 1e gloss. This mechanic isn't really a formal part of the 1e rules, and the difficulty the designer of the C1 module had in coming up with a mechanic to deal with this well demonstrates that. The more I found myself approaching the game in this way, the more I felt that I just ought to concede and adjudicate the game as '3e lite' with adapted skill checks and so forth. And the longer I played the more I felt that if I were to keep DMing 1e, that in the long run I'd turn it into something a lot like 3e.

Social issues, I made them role-play.

Me too. In every edition. But I want to point out that if you are going to purely do this, you might consider eliminating the otherwise mostly useless charisma ability from the game.

If they wanted to roll it instead of worry about being in character, I allowed that, but I punished it. My wife says that's somewhat unfair, which I can see...

Yeah, your wife sounds like a smart woman; you should listen to here.

My approach here is that I'll ultimately resolve the roleplay via a fortune mechanic, but that that fortune mechanic has to be earned and will be influenced by the content of the player's message. If you want to persuade someone to do something, you first have to present a reason why they should do something. So we play this out in character. Once I feel that we've reached a point where the NPC has to make a decision, I make a 'reaction roll' appropriate to the system in question with modifiers according to how reasonable the PC's request is and how close the relation between the PC and the NPC is. This ensures that player's with high personal charisma won't be able to substitute (entirely) their own charisma for the characters, and likewise that player's with low personal charisma will still get a reward from having a character with high charisma.

And honestly, this system tends to help new, shy, and unconfident players build social skills because the player knows or learns that despite stuttering and otherwise poor presentation of his role play - he's not going to be punished for it but possibly even rewarded.

It sounds like you are already starting to go down this road because you've realized the limitations in ignoring charima (and for that matter ignoring fortune and just relying on fiat).

I felt this at first. I really did, but as I learned how the game ought to be played and really cultivated my imagination and my oral skills, this issue you're describing, which I think I understand, became a non-issue. We had a thief looking for traps. I didn't just let him roll for traps, but let him poke around and figure how the trap mechanics worked. I had an image in my head and I'd try to describe it. As a DM, I learned I was the conduit for the player's world. They didn't know what kind of traps are in the world, so they what I told them was imperative. I think what hurts this is the lack of skill system, as PCs could just roll on a chart to see how well they do. As long as you ensure to stick to a cohesive, logical idea to your games: this shouldn't be a problem. Foreshadowing helps amazingly well with this as well. I taught the thief what kind of traps are out in the world when he made it to town to "level up". He'd be exposed to more of the world and trained to be better. This came with experience after a few months of AD&D and I've read that you've played the game for a long while beforehand, so don't feel I'm lecturing. I'm merely telling you what worked for my game and for my players.

I don't really understand your thesis in this section, nor am I convinced you understand my issues with the 1e system. I will say you seem to be learning quickly.

I don't want to get derailed into a 'searching for traps' argument because searching is an extremely complex topic. Much as with social interaction, I agree that concrete propositions and interaction with the game world is preferred. However, I will briefly state that one should avoid romanticizing concreteness in redundant actions like attacking and searching. If someone is going to search the flagstone floor for pressure plates 78 times in the dungeon, at some point you'll either need or want to abstract out this process.

I'd rather talk about an easier to approach topic like swimming. In 1e, if you want to be fair about it, whether or not someone sinks is a very complex question without a lot of obvious answers simply because of the overwhelming number of factors involved. In 3e, everyone has a swim value basically precomputed and if I need to answer the question, who swims, who sinks, how fast can they move, all I basically need to do is say, "Swim check." During the session I had to ask, "Can I see your character sheet? How many wounds do you have? How much weight are you carrying? What sort of armor are you wearing? What's your strength?", and so forth. Its an interruption, and one that produces less than satisfying results. Obviously, you could just wing it, with ability checks and so forth, but ultimately that would end up being 3e inspired mechanics.

I love imbalance. I really do. I like the feeling that some players are more geared for combat than others and this WOULD be a problem for 4e, but because 1e provides more freedom and offers a chance for players to really think outside the box rather than just worry on their stats, that imbalance can be easily met and demolished by smart, creative players.

I think that there are a few things to be said.

First, regardless of the system, I don't mind having characters that 'shine' at different points in the game. Not everyone needs to contribute equally to every situation or every combat. Not everyone needs to be good at everything, and flaws and weaknesses are welcome and often inspiring additions to character. But I do think you are making the mistake of equating the concept of diversity with imbalance. Diversity is good; imbalance is not.

1) A smart creative player with a weak character still shines less than a smart creative player with a strong character. Why in the world make the assumption that its always going to be the smartest, most experienced, most creative player that ends up with the weak character? First of all, why not assume that all your players are smart and creative? Secondly, what happens when its your smartest, most creative, most experienced player that ends up with the strong character, and its your player that's least inexperienced, least confident, least assertive, and least creative that ends up with the weak character? You shouldn't assume that every player is going to overcome this deficit easily, or that if they fail to that they are a bad player. The more players you DM, from more backgrounds, with more personalities, and more diverse age groups, the less this elitist notion will be attractive I think.

2) People who make this argument invariably don't carry it to a very strong conclusion. They always present as 'the weak character' someone who is actually not that weak but has some strong characteristic that the player can rely on, or is at least in the hands of a very skillful player and isn't too crippled. I really feel that these people ought to read 'A Weekend with Wendell' to recall what imbalanced role play really is. "Here's your characters. Bob, you play Earth's mightiest swordsman. Jeff, you are playing the world's mightest sorcerer. Ed, you are Jack the Shadow, the greatest jewel thief in history. Jim, you are playing Eustace, a mentally disabled beggar with crippling arthritis - make the character your own." If Jim has the right sort of personality, that's fun for 1-3 sessions. Eventually, it gets old for everyone, especially the third or fourth time your character dies through no fault of your own and you still roll up a chump. If you want to make an argument for imbalance, don't try to make it off a character with 19 Str and some non-crippling social weaknesses.

3) Not everyone role plays for the same reasons. People who have reasons to role play other than the ones you enjoy aren't bad gamers. If you DM long enough and with enough different players, you'll have to learn to deal with power gamers, ego gamers, people engaged in escapism, problem solvers, and so forth and treat them as valuable players with something to offer your game. If the player is playing the game for the experience of vicariously being a hero, he's probably not going to be happy to being relegated to being the comedic sidekick, the coward, the Jar-Jar, the Wonder Twin, the Dr. Zac, the guy the rest of the team has to rescue, the minion, or so forth. Alot of players will see that as a great oppurtunity for role play and characterization, and be perfectly happy with and that's great, but don't expect everyone to. A balanced system that allows for a lot of diversity will ultimately make more of your players happy, than randomly assigning losers to your players.

4) I spent most of my 1e player career playing thieves, which is a lot like deliberately handicapping yourself so that you're forced to rely on your player wits.
 

Chainsaw Mage

First Post
No disrespect, but I really don't understand why Cerebrim would even bother with his original post. I mean, why put all that time and effort into writing in great detail about how you *don't* like something?

You don't like AD&D 1e. Cool. Move on.

;)
 

Halivar

First Post
No disrespect, but I really don't understand why Cerebrim would even bother with his original post. I mean, why put all that time and effort into writing in great detail about how you *don't* like something?
With WotC putting heavy emphasis on OD&D and AD&D 1E in their design articles, I think talking about what we don't like from those editions is as important as what we do like. I don't agree with a lot of the OP's points, but I also think WotC has the capability of supporting both of our playstyles, and should endeavor to do so.
 

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