Blog: Sneak Attack Vs. Backstab 3/28/12

[Minigiant]

I like this idea. The idea of giving everyone a basic sneak attack is great.

In fact (if I may go on a tangent) I would like this applied to Power attack and let certain classes increase the multiplier/damage.

I don't like a skill option. Combat abilities and skill abilities should not compete in core.

 

[Li Shenron]

I like the idea quite a lot, although I am not sure if the +1d6 bonus (available to everyone) needs some possible scaling at higher levels to remain a good option.

I strongly prefer Sneak Attack (and Backstab) to not work against creatures who aren't alive or who have no shape, but sadly I know this is never going to come back.

 

[Bedrockgames]

By "effective", do you mean optimal, or at lease close to? I don't really see the point of including them if they're ineffective or pointless.

I simply mean if they are equal to or better than non encounter or daily choices, I would feel pressured to take them if they were core. Not commenting on whether abilitites should be effective or not. Just saying i would prefer these not be in the core system, and if they are, I am not going to buy Next.

 

[Starbuck_II]

Anyone noticed that he stays the playtest character gets up to 10d6 with each attack, but gets up to 20d6... meaning Rogues have a limit of 2 attks/rd?

So he says: everyone an give up the +2 hit (advantage always in every edition been +2 hit, besides losing dex) for 1d5 damage.

But according to the new idea he has Rogues do not have Sneak attack class feature at 1st level because Rogue Fighting Technique doesn't kick in till 2nd level.

Rogue Fighting Technique feature at, say, level 2 and again every couple of levels or so. The feature might let you choose one of the following benefits every time you get it.
Combat Maneuver: The rogue gets two combat maneuvers (think at-will powers).
Widget: Some sort of skill-like benefit or trick.
Weapon Specialization: A cool benefit tied to one of the rogue’s weapon groups.
Sneak Attack: Whenever you backstab a creature, you deal 1d6 extra damage. Each time you gain this benefit, increase the extra damage by 1d6.
What I like about this is that sneak attack modifies something that lives in the basic rules and sneak attack no longer has to define the rogue.

So we can increase damage when advantage by 1d6 (so 2d6 at levl 2),
get some skill trick (maybe run up a wall, climb/swim faster, pickpocket faster, detect traps easier, etc),
weapon bonus (like disarming bonus thingy),
or 2 combat maneuvers (like whenever you attack you can shift one; throw sand in enemies face to blind them, Fort save, 1 rd; whenever you attack gain +1 Dodge AC for 1 rd).

 

[I'm A Banana]

'tain't bad at all.

I like giving the rogue more diversity, so that it isn't just "the sneak attack class." Rob's pool of options suggests that any of these options will add to your combat effectiveness, just in different ways (an attack power, a skill trick, a weapon power, or just raw damage sauce with advantage), so you can build a few different kinds of rogue-skirmishers. Maybe your daggermaster has some weapon specialization in daggers, and my sneak-thief has a few more skill tricks or combat manuevers that include movement, and Alice's street tough pumps up Sneak Attack to absurd levels.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I like the idea quite a lot, although I am not sure if the +1d6 bonus (available to everyone) needs some possible scaling at higher levels to remain a good option.

I strongly prefer Sneak Attack (and Backstab) to not work against creatures who aren't alive or who have no shape, but sadly I know this is never going to come back.

giving up advantage for 1d6 damage at higher levels is a trap. But maybe a little basic scaling would do the trick. And a rogue should not have to give up advantage for his backstab.
On the other hand, if you notice, that you like backstab, and find yourself doing it a lot, maybe it is a hint for you to multiclass into rogue sometime soon.

I don´t think, that giving up 1d6 damage and instead shifting is equal to letting down the party. Actually shifting is much underrated in 4e. With my first level wizard daily that nearly only used to slidefriend and foe around, I made combat hell for the DM. Teh knight was nearly always in the position, where he needed to be. Shifts and slide can be damage multipliers, not additions.

 

[Sunseeker]

I have no problem with sneak attack bonuses as they were.

I agree that all classes should be able to gain special(but different) benefits for having [combat] advantage.

I like the idea of trading advantage bonuses for special extra bonuses, but feel that just having advantage on it's own should be more interesting for everyone than it already is.

Special Rogue Training things should fill a lot of roles, in addition to pumping up sneak-attack damage. But I'd rather see changes to die types or special effects rather than simply increasing the number as the primary use of these features.

Of all the classes out there that need revision, I think rogues simply aren't one of them. They have a lot of features, they deal a lot of damage, and have a lot of skills. Fighters could take some pointers. Diversity in features is great, but forcing players to choose between being good in combat and being good outside of combat in a game that ideally has both parts roughly equal is not a fair choice.

 

[BobTheNob]

Im just not fond of the depiction of sneak attack as a purely combat mechanic, which it really ended up as in 3.x and 4e. I always saw snea k attack/backstap as more of an RP enabler.

e.g.
You sneak up on the guard. <Roll a bunch of whatever rolls required, not a damage based mechanic, more akin to a skill check scenario> and drive a dagger into his side, he goes down quietly. The way is clear for the party to go through.

I sort of acknowledge that the rogue could have a damage bonus for advantage based attacks (as a concession to the alternate view point, which I know is the stronger community consensus), but 1d6 ever 2 levels? It is just stratospherically too much IMO. So in term of what the blog propsed...I want widgets that include well defined "Auto takedown, RP mechanics" and I think I would be happy.

 

[GX.Sigma]

This part worried me...

The extra damage as of right now goes all the way up to 10d6 at the highest levels, but a rogue can use the damage against anybody. At first glance, this feels right

Wait, what? How can 10d6 "feel right" to anyone? I don't want to roll ten freaking dice every time I have combat advantage! I don't even own 10d6! Am I supposed to roll 2d6 five times? Can't I trade up to 3d20 or something? Jeez...

 

[Boarstorm]

[MENTION=82425]BobTheNob[/MENTION] Was sneak attack/backstab EVER that?

Regardless, with damage scaling by level, this could remain conceivable -- especially with the flatter power curve that would enable "weak" guards to be relevant throughout an adventurer's career.