Sorry that this has taken me so long to respond but I wanted to express my ideas fully and that can sometimes take a little time. Perhaps I should start a new thread for this (and still might) but for the moment, I’ll answer Pemerton’s challenge where it was given.
tl;dr Splitting out physical wounding from everything else hit points represent allows greater scope and strengthening of each of these concepts without confusion or anomaly. Of the 3 situations Pemerton gives, 1) and 3) are handled more strongly and reliably while 2) is somewhat handled but needs more discussion.
I'm interested to see what your solution looks like. But I'm a little bit skeptical.
I don't mind you be skeptical at all, it means I'm either going to solve a tricky problem or I'm going to learn something new; either way win-win for me. Now this may take a little back and forth but I think I can give it a good shot. [KM, please forgive this indulgence in your thread
]
Herremann's Split System Basic Assumptions
* A character's capacity for heroic action and their capacity for physical damage are represented by two separate things:
Hit Points and
Wound Points.
* Hit Points (
HPs) represent the same thing they have across the spectrum of D&D
except for serious (wounding) damage.
That is they represent:
-
Luck and Fate [AD&D PHB p34.; 4e PHB p293; D&D Next How to Play p12]
-
Magical Forces and Sixth Sense [AD&D PHB p34.; AD&D DMG p82]
-
Fatigue/Endurance/Stamina [AD&D PHB p34; 4e PHB p293; D&D Next How to Play p12]
-
Morale/Inspiration [4e PHB p144]
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Skill to turn a serious (wounding) blow into a lesser (non-wounding) blow. [AD&D PHB p34; 3.5 PHB p147; 4e PHB p293; D&D Next How to Play p12]
-
Divine Favour or Providence [AD&D DMG p82; 3.5 p147; D&D Next How to Play p12]
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Inner Power [3.5 p147]
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Resolve and the Will to keep going despite one's injuries [Rules Cyclopaedia p7; 3.5 p147; 4e PHB p293]
-
Toughness and the capacity to shrug off a hit. [4e Essentials Rules Compendium p65; D&D Next How to Play p12]
* Wound Points (
WPs) represent the characters capacity for physical damage. A character gains wounds and the WPs and possible penalties attached to them.
For example: a mace to the ankle wounds a character; the wound is worth 6 wp and the character suffers a penalty; their movement is restricted to 20ft. (10ft. below their normal) and they cannot run or sprint. A sword slash bites in to the character's arm but not too badly; the wound is worth 2 wp but there are no penalties attached this time. The character has a total 8 wp worth of wounds. At this stage, I am leaving open how penalties if any are determined.
Now with Wounds, there are two limits to watch:
Incapacitated Limit: If your character's total WPs add up to or exceed this limit, they are now incapacitated. This could mean they have gone down on the knee, been left deliriously swooning, collapsed unconscious, or have been left shaking in the foetal position (unconsciousness is not assumed but certainly may happen depending upon a check).
Death Limit: If your character's total WPs add up to or exceed this limit, they are dying and their body no longer heals or can be healed. Death may be instant or it may take several long and painful days. Again a check decides.
For Example: A character may have limits [Incapacitated|Death] of [16|24]. If they take a total 16 wp of wounds, they are incapacitated (like going into the negatives but perhaps a little worse depending upon edition). If they take a total 24 wp of wounds, they are dying.
[
Aside: A wound point is a unit of measure: 1 wp typically takes 1 day to no longer affect the character - it most likely is not completely healed but the cut/abrasion/contusion no longer mechanically impacts the PC. At the end of each day with a little help, each of a character's wounds is healed 1 wp. A 5 wp wound will typically take 5 days to heal naturally. When a wound decreases to zero, it no longer affects the character and any penalties from that wound are removed.]
[
Aside(2): While the above is my preference, you could easily simplify this to a wound track (similar to Saga I think, as well as 4e diseases etc.) or even just have them straight up counted. I obviously prefer a more representative approach.]
* Independence of the Two Pools: Now something to note is that Hit Points and Wound Points are quite independent of each other. What happens with one does not necessarily affect the other. This is different compared to the tiered approach which places too many demands upon each pool, like the rate of healing of hit points in 3e and previous. This independence allows both to accomplish different roles in a game without being uncomfortably tied together.
* The Important Point: is that any possible damage goes directly to wound damage
unless the character has the privilege of using their hit points instead. The privilege of using hit points is not to be underestimated or casually assumed. Depending upon the character, the
expending or loss of hit points can be described in a variety of ways. A lucky rogue may duck to avoid some missile which luckily also means that the adjacent ogre's club swipe that would have hit the rogue 20ft into the wall instead luckily misses. The hale barbarian in the same circumstance steps back skilfully taking a glancing blow that stings like buggery but she's tough enough to keep going. What the hit points mean is dependent upon the character and circumstances. There is
enormous design space here as I highlighted in a previous response on this thread. The expending of hit points can represent any of the things on the hit point list above.
* Denying the Privilege of Expending Hit Points: When the character is out of hit points, they can no longer expend hit points to avoid wound damage. Also, there are some situations where the character loses the privilege to use their hit points such as swimming in a lava lake, if they are helpless, receiving a hard critical (as against a soft critical but more of that later), or if they are unconscious. In these situations, hit points typically cannot be used.
Now for the example ahead, I introduce you to
Sir Arryn. Sir Arryn has:
30 hit points and has
[Incapacitated|Death] WP limits of
[14|22].
He has some nice chain on and so is pretty well protected.
[
Aside: In terms of character development across a campaign, hit points increase as you would expect as the character gains experience. In terms of wounds the death limit of a character remains pretty stable throughout their adventuring career. However, for martial classes as well as other classes that get physically or mentally tougher, their incapacitated limit will edge closer to their death limit. A supreme monk with perfect control over mind and body represents the pinnacle and where their incapacitated and death limits are almost identical.]
A spilt system makes it hard to do the following sorts of things:
* This round, you lose 6 hp from fallin in a pit - it's a strained ankle!; next round, you lose 6 hp from a hit from a spider at the bottom of the pit - it's a near miss!
The first involves narrating a "fate" loss
after a "meat" loss, without any intervening healing - this doesn't work with a layered system, unless you introduce some additional complexities like that falls always go to the second layer (and with that complexity, I lose the narrative space of heroes jumping off cliffs to escape their foes, and surviving).
This is where the flexibility of having independent pools comes to the fore.
Sir Arryn is prepared with sword out as the party rogue opens the dungeon door. Unfortunately he does not react to the pit opening beneath his feet (his reflex/dexterity whatever is botched) and so he plummets to the bottom and is denied the privilege of using hit points. Fortunately, the fall is not far and so he takes a 6 wp wound and gets a sprained ankle for his trouble represented by a penalty (the same one as in the example above perhaps), he’s slowed down 10 feet and cannot run or sprint. He still has his 30 hit points. He stands up limping when a spider attacks him from the shadows. As he is not surprised he gets to spend 6 hps to avoid the attack, the spider attack is a near miss but it has cost him some effort/luck/skill to avoid (leave this up to the player to narrate as they reduce their hit points from 30 down to 24.
Now I contend that this is no more difficult or complex than 3e’s separating out of nonlethal damage from lethal damage (it had two pools) or 4e’s separating of hit points and healing surges. In fact, I think it is more intuitive as players and DM know exactly what has happened here.
In a more hairy situation, Sir Arryn and his bodyguard Nurg the Half-Orc are being chased by a giant to the precipice of a cliff. Now they could do the Thelma and Louise thing here and leap to their certain deaths. What’s happening here is that by leaping off without any thought, they are denying the privilege of using hit points and so all the damage is going direct to wound points. Let’s say this is 40 wp worth (well above his death limit of 22 wps) and so Sir Arryn crumples on landing with his guts bursting out horrifically; a tasty snack for the next carnivore to happen by. Nurg next to him most likely suffers a similar fate, splatted nearby.
However, I don’t see why you have to lose the narrative space you are after either.
Sir Arryn in the same hairy situation does not leap off the cliff with gay abandon this time. Instead he carefully looks down, spies a possible route and tries to catch a branch to slow his fall, a ledge and then a tree near the bottom. Because this time, he has a plan, you the DM allow him the privilege of his hit points. The 40 points worth from the fall expends his full 30 hit points and with the residual 10 takes a pretty nasty wound and possible penalties but as the 10 wp is below his incapacitated threshold of 14, he can limp away but in a pretty down and out state. Nurg unfortunately went splat again.
[
Aside: Now Pemerton, I could almost imagine you turning this into a life and death skill challenge. For each success down that cliff, the branch slowing, landing on the ledge before it falls away from the impact etc. you would allow Sir Arryn the privilege of using his hit points for that portions worth of damage. A fail however means any potential damage is going to be wounding instead. In this way, the mix of hit point expenditure and wounding can be alternated to whatever degree you wish to describe the narrative or its outcome.]
* I just collapsed because my pools are all empty - am I dying from a serious wound, or just swooning? We won't know until the death saves are rolled.
The second is the standard 4e death and dying mechanic - its fortune in the middle character depends entirely on it being mechanically ambiguous whether that final blow was a serious blow to your meat, or an unlucky twist of fate from which you'll shortly recover.
So what you are saying would be Sir Arryn has used up all his hit points. He is spent, and fighting on nothing but adrenaline and/or instinct. And then he takes a wound that sends him to his knees incapacitated. Now with the system I detail above, the player would know if Sir Arryn was dying or just incapacitated. And perhaps this underlines the intent of my ideas above. I want the mechanics to inform the DM and to inform the player what is going on; what has just happened (fortune at the end?). For me it brings clarity whereas for you, I’ve just pinned down a heap of your narrative options. The ambiguity you’re after led to one of the issues I have with 4e’s death blow versus stunning recovery situation: the enormous gulf in between these two extreme results. Your character is dead, or neatly back into the action the next day; there is no in between. For some this is a feature but for me, it is a gaping hole in the result spectrum one would expect from adventuring.
However, we can most likely create a switch more than a dial here that facilitates that ambiguity. It is easy enough to say that when you are incapacitated, that is when you get your three fails before your character’s dead. What is happening though is rather than death or stunning recovery, you are getting death or “how badly is my character injured”. The answer to that could be anywhere in the range from lightly injured (back into the action with a minor penalty after a short rest) to injured to horrifically injured to instantly dead on the third fail. You could use a dial here to determine what those failed saves mean to suit the campaign.
Now while the hit points I have presented give you some room for Fate in the Middle; wound points on the other hand pin you down. How hard they pin down your options though is something that can be put on a dial; with
ambiguity being the dial turned one way and
informative being the dial turned all the way up. Can you think of anyway how you would adjust this more to your liking? Is it OK to have a degree of freedom in certain situations while being somewhat pinned down in others.
* I've taken a slash to the thigh from the hobgoblin captain's sword, and the stinger from his wyvern narrowly miss skewering me (but a bit of poison got in nevertheless, and is now coursing through my veins) - luckily the commander has my back ("Inpsiring Word"), and so I can keep going despite my injuries.
The third is inspirational healing to meat hit point loss.
So Sir Arryn takes a wound (critical hit) from the Hoboblin’s captain (let’s say a 4 wp wound with a 5ft. move penalty). His wyvern though not only wounds but poisons. (I think for an injected poison to work, it has to work through a wound but if you wanted the wyvern poison to be particularly nasty, it could work even if hit points were expended.) So Sir Arryn has a poisoned 2 wp wound and Sir Arryn is on a poisoned track where he loses (5e his reaction; 4e his minor action; 3.x his swift action or capacity for attacks of opportunities) – you get the idea. Now at this point and most importantly, Sir Arryn is not incapacitated and so can act normally except for the penalties (movement and denial of minor action).
Let’s have a look at some of the actions possible from the group’s inspirational leader Sir Brannagh.
• Sir Brannagh can keep giving Sir Arryn and others in the group hit points of inspiration (those hit points representing morale and the will to go on, and assisting the character’s resolve). While Sir Arryn has hit points to expend, he can usually avoid the worst his enemies have to throw at him. The independence of hit points and wounding here is perhaps the strongest feature of the split system. As long as the character is not incapacitated, they can keep going on quite successfully as long as they have hit points left. By Sir Brannagh inspiring everyone around him (giving all within 30ft. of him an 8 hp boost), he ensures that they can keep going. Sir Brannagh is not “shouting wounds closed” as he does not influence those wounds (they are still there: 4wp and 2 wp). He
does directly affect the character’s hit points though.
• I think it worth mentioning second wind here. All characters should be able to pull out a second wind where this returns a portion of hit points but again does not affect a character’s wounds.
• As I mentioned upthread, there is something else a warlord can do here. By striking the Hobgoblin hard and true, Sir Brannagh yells out a battle cry inspiring those near him including Sir Arryn. At this point Sir Arryn for his next turn can act freely and without any of the penalties affecting him. Sir Brannagh’s inspiration has helped Sir Arryn momentarily push on ignoring these penalties.
• Now what happens if Sir Arryn cops another big wound from the Wyvern that leaves him incapacitated (let’s say a 9 wp smash to the arm with a penalty that he can no longer use his left arm: Sir Arryn drops his shield as his left arm hangs useless by his side). Sir Arryn goes down on one knee in extreme pain unable to act. This is where Sir Brannagh uses his “I Have Your Back” ability: so long as the target Sir Arryn is conscious (which he is as the wound was not a head or stunning blow) and Sir Brannagh remains within 5ft. of the target, Sir Arryn’s incapacitated limit is increased by 4 [from 14 wp to 18 wp and thus he is no longer incapacitated and thus can act normally except for his wound penalties]. A character’s incapacitated limit is more a product of their resolve (and thus something a warlord could affect) where as their death limit is more a product of their physicality (and thus something that a warlord most probably couldn’t). I could imagine this being used though to keep a character going even beyond their death limit, but when the battle is finished or the warlord’s influence is halted, the character would collapse in a heap dying.
I’m sure there is a metric ton of other ways how you could get an inspirational “healer” to assist a party but the above covers some of the most obvious. By separating out hit points from wound points, you give the warlord their playground to work in and affect without all the anomalies associated when you combine the two. A warlord cannot directly affect a character’s wounds but they can affect how a character reacts to those wounds by getting them to momentarily ignore the penalties associated with those wounds or through altering their incapacitated limit, getting a fallen character to find the will to keep going. I posit that by separating hit points from wound points, this actually gives greater strength to these concepts as well as greater clarity.
[As I see it, the examples all have a common underlying structure - they do not fit with a process-simulation constraint, because they treat exactly the same mechanical event - the deduction or addition of some numbers from or to a single hp pool - as sometimes meat, sometimes fate, depending not upon any further mechanical considerations (such as which "tier" has points left in it) but upon context and narrative.
I believe that the split pool system above works particularly well with the narrative of the various actions. By defining hit points flexibly, as well as making them a privilege that can be flexibly given dependent upon the context of what’s happening in the game, I think the above is a good middle ground that can be dialled one way or the other.
I would be very interested in your thoughts and to what level you would find it supportive of the style you prefer. Thanks again for the brilliant discussion and analysis.
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
