Convincing 4th Edition players to consider 5th Edition

Crazy Jerome

First Post
I think it also depends a bit on what the game mechanics are meant to do. If they meant to provide a process simulation, then I guess that anyone might have a better view of how that simulation should be implemented. But if the mechanics are meant (for example) to distribute spotlight time among the participants, and have been designed to do this via careful reference to the abilities that participants get via the PC-build rules, then I would think you might want to play as written for a bit before toying with them.

You'd think that, but I find in practice (both personal and professional) that a majority of people who tend to default to process thinking tend to avoid analysis of the process itself when trouble arises. There are many significant exceptions, of course, given the wide variance in people, but the majority is as I have described.

Furthermore, this seems to have nothing to do with smarts, education, background, etc. I've known highly technical people, who are analytical in their jobs every day, very successful, who will blindly follow a side process even after it trips them up.

I once worked for a company where over 10 engineers and technical management had blown $10,000 repeatedly over the same error, then wasted more trying for a foolproof technical fix. I mentioned that all we needed was that the backup on-call person (already there and needed for other purposes) simply needed to double-check the main on-call person's work, spending 5 minutes once a month. This would statistically reduce the chance of another failure to practically nil. They just stared at me. It had never even occurred to anyone before to question the process, through an 300%+ staff turnover in the six years this had been happening. (This was no great feather in my cap, either. It was a combination of having enough technical knowledge to know that a technical solution wouldn't work, but being new enough to the company to not be blinded by the established process. Any decent, technically qualified, business consultant would have spotted it, if asked.)

My experience is that people are nearly always good judges of "this thing we are doing now is not working" but terrible at considering why. And like Scott Adams dictum that "we are all stupid, part of the time, about something," it can get anyone on a particular thing. We are creatures of habit. I'm certainly not immune in my own blindspots. :D
 

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Balesir

Adventurer
If one wants to forget real-world physics and have the game world run on its own different physics as defined by the game rules, those rules are going to have to include an awful lot of pretty dry stuff about how said game-world physics actually work...think about it.
Actually, a lot less than you might think if you have always assumed a "real world process" system basis. A lot of that "physics" is actually not relevant at all to the system; it's part of the "colour", or the way the players sat around the table visualise the game. The system really only cuts in when an actual resolution of a contested action must be made - i.e. when something the system defines as "a thing that doesn't happen automatically" is attempted by either a player (and yes, I do mean "player", not "character" - even though they will likely be attempting to have their character do something) or the GM.

All the rest is "fluff" - which is not to say it's not important; fluff is very important. But it doesn't need "system" to make it work.

You can't really have it both ways. Either you use real-world physics as a basis for what the characters are experiencing in the game world (e.g. you fall because of gravity, fire doesn't burn without oxygen, solid-liquid-gas are the three states of matter, the characters are carbon-based lifeforms, etc.) and tweak them a bit to suit what magic does; or you start completely from scratch and rewrite physics to suit your game world and the universe that contains it.
You may very well "write" the fluff to resemble real world "physics" (though I might call them "tropes", rather than "physics" at this point, since the cause need not and usually is not either specified or fixed).

For the rest, I find that the pitfalls are manifold. Take "fire doesn't burn without oxygen", for example. Does this mean that a fireball doesn't work underwater? If yes, then I would throw back that "fire doesn't burn without fuel", either, but the fireball still works just fine without the caster carting around cans of gasoline. Does this mean that the fireball spell doesn't work out of water, either? Or does it mean that the "laws of physics" just don't apply to fireballs? If the second, then I would argue that you have just proven that "fire doesn't burn without oxygen" is not a "rule" that need apply in the game world at all, so, if you insist on it, it's purely arbitrary.

Conversely, if a DM intentionally ignores a rule and a better game (i.e. more fun) results because of it, isn't that a good thing?
Sure, but how will they know that up front? And "more fun" for whom?

My experience is that on-the-fly "rule-zeroing" hardly ever achieves this - certainly not in the longer term. Carefully considered houseruling might - which is just one reason why I'm a lot more accepting of houserules that are published by the GM in advance than making up rules on the run.

Problem is, for most of us pretty much any game system will have some aspects to it that some of us like and others that we do not; and they'll be different for every one of us.
Sure - good job there isn't just one single game system!

To clarify, my position is this:

- Considered houseruling of a system is OK where needed; on the fly rulings and deliberate rules ambiguity are not because they gimp players of understanding they should have of how the (game) world works and frequently cause unintended consequences.

- Every group, for every game they play, should ideally pick a ruleset closest to (or most easily houseruled to) what they want out of the system for the game they want to play. If houserules reach a book-full, you might want to consider other start points.

- D&D, specifically, is one just possible ruleset that might be chosen. As such, it would do best to aim at those features of play that are best fitted to its "core assumptions or features"; I see these latter as character classes, hit points, armour class, experience points, levels, magic by "spells" as things rather than processes and doubtless other stuff I've overlooked right now. A real-physics-based, real-life-process based system really is not what I think fits with these things. That is not to say that a game based on these things is "wrong" or even "not great fun" - just that a game focussed on such considerations would be much better off starting with a different system than what D&D has ever been.

I think that a good GM generally won't do this in a way that won't work with long term players (because if he does, the players with which this isn't a fit will leave his group). Additionally, poor GMs who abuse this rule are more likely to be poor in other areas, from my experience (Rule 0 abuse from the GM is commonly found with GMPCs or railroad plots, from my experience).
This, again, seems to be talking about "houserules" set up beforehand rather than making up rules in media res because the rules themselves are deliberately ambiguous.

I agree that Rule 0 is often used for enabling railroad plots and GMPC "neat tricks", but I think there's a thin, thin line between this and building situations and NPC abilities based on how the GM imagines the "real physics" of the system will work. If I build an NPC with a spell that is loosely and ambiguously defined, of course I design them using my interpretation of the spell as a basis. If I set up an in-game situation involving ambiguously defined elements, of course I set the situation up assuming my interpretation of those elements - how could I do otherwise? But, if the players don't share my understanding/interpretation of those rules, it will naturally seem to them that the NPC is advantaged, or that the situation is contrived - even if that was far from my intent.

In part that's due to how it is presented; and in principle the idea of the game rules being in the DM's control is not a bad thing. Where it goes wrong is when rules are changed on the fly (as opposed to after some forethought ahead of time) and-or the rules whether changed or not are not applied consistently.
This seems to be very close to my position. Houserules notified in advance and consistently applied are fine (with a caveat you phrase so well I'll quote it below); on the fly changes or rules that demand interpretation on the fly aren't.

If a DM sees a problem and thinks she knows how to fix it she should try.

The challenge is admitting after a while that the fix is worse than the original problem, on those occasions when such turns out to be the case.
So good it bears repeating just for truth. I agree completely; if you must change the rules:

- Consider it carefully beforehand, including figuring out why you want the change and checking that you are fixing the bit that actually needs fixing (for you).

- Notify all involved about the change in advance and entertain objections and reservations (maybe allowing some character changes or tweaks to address those).

- Review the changes as time goes by and be ready to rethink if the change has adverse consequences that are worse than the original issue.

I'd also like to see a section devoted to resolving conflicts between the DM and the rules. In other words, a primer on how to kitbash the system.
I think it's also worth being clear about different types of addition/change. I don't for example, consider creating new "monsters" to be a system change - any more than creating NPCs or locations is. If the world has orcs with one hit die, I don't consider adding in orcs with two hit dice to be a "system change", but changing weapon damage so that it reduces CON instead of hit points would be a different kettle of fish!

For "creating new elements" - be they monsters, traps, social tasks or even spells - I think guidelines and design tools are what is needed. Something similar to 4e's monster charts (though perhaps explained differently, since some seemed to think they were "rules", as such).

For system changes, however, I don't think there's all that much the designers can do, except explain why the systems are designed as they are designed and thus what might break if you start to fiddle with them.

I've always held that magic items found in an adventure should either be a) somewhat random, or b) things the dungeon inhabitants would likely possess and-or use.
I would be a little careful, there. If magic items are supposed to be only "found in treasure" or "hideously expensive to buy", a bunch of monsters having just what they can usefully use can look a lot like some sort of "GM's creatures are all in the conspiracy" set up. Are we considering that the monsters - but not the characters - can exchange items freely in a worldwide "magic mart" network? Or that the world-spanning conclave of black-hat mages cooperate to supply all the world's monsters with what they need?

I've seen this become a slippery slope. I once saw a player suggest interrogating a random goblin (or was it a kobold?), on the basis that "all the monsters seem to know what every other monster knows about us - let's assume they do likelwise about the boss guy's plans!"...

Problem still exists, though: how is the stuff going to be divided so everyone gets a fair share?
The players I run for handle it pretty simply (in D&D 4e); each item goes to whoever can best use it. After the run, the monetary values are totalled out (using a spreadsheet), but the values are used merely as a guideline for who gets to make choices about spending fungible wealth.

I use the original 4e item rules, mind you, and I find they have several features that support this approach. For one thing, rituals allow for items to be made, remade, modified and unmade by the characters. Basically, magic items become a character building resource that is shared by the party as a whole, rather than received by each character exclusively for their own use. This seems to lead to some interesting "team optimisation" going on, which helps enhance teamwork generally. It's certainly a lot more interesting than the "how do we split this fairly" sums I remember from 3.X, but then maybe we could handle 3.X treasure distribution based on this "teamwork" experience? Maybe, but I doubt I'll ever find out for sure.
 

Balesir

Adventurer
Well the twist is that I'm saying that I'm my saying that my views are better for my own game than the rpg designers', and the others are also better for their games than the designers'.
I will happily use my judgement to decide what ruleset to use, and perhaps to houserule it judiciously before play. I will not, however, start pulling rulings from my backside during play and expect that to produce a coherent and balanced rule system. Or, indeed, anything but a mess that will be, at best, temporarily appealing.

Whereas some have posted that rpg players are essentially incompetent to play rpgs and should simply read a book and do exactly what is in it without using their own judgment.
The rules don't tell you how to play an RPG; they tell you how to resolve in-game contended actions. As such, yes, they should be used as written during play precisely because they are about resolving points that are contended between the GM and one or more players, or between two or more players.

My philosophy in this regard could be worded as "play what you like" (not what the books like).
"The books" don't "like" anything. They simply record a method of resolution that the gaming group may choose to use. When contended points arise, they stipulate how those points will be resolved for the game in progress.

RPG rules don't tell you how to play, but they do tell you how the game world actions and reactions work at the interface between character and world. Tha they do this is a good thing, since this information is absolutely something that should be shared by all who are playing.
 

Ahnehnois

First Post
I will happily use my judgement to decide what ruleset to use, and perhaps to houserule it judiciously before play. I will not, however, start pulling rulings from my backside during play and expect that to produce a coherent and balanced rule system. Or, indeed, anything but a mess that will be, at best, temporarily appealing.
Bottom line: you're exercising your own judgment.

The rules don't tell you how to play an RPG; they tell you how to resolve in-game contended actions. As such, yes, they should be used as written during play precisely because they are about resolving points that are contended between the GM and one or more players, or between two or more players.
I don't quite get this. Is the DM saying that the attack misses and the player saying that it hits and the dice decide? Seems to me that players and DMs aren't really contesting anything most of the time. The rules just give you a language to describe what happens and introduce some limited realism and gameplay.

"The books" don't "like" anything.
In theory, they shouldn't. In practice, they do. Some more than others.
 

I don't quite get this. Is the DM saying that the attack misses and the player saying that it hits and the dice decide? Seems to me that players and DMs aren't really contesting anything most of the time. The rules just give you a language to describe what happens and introduce some limited realism and gameplay.

It isn't about the dice, its about the odds, more specifically about the player knowing the odds in advance and being able to make informed decisions on what action to take based on that knowledge. The conflict in my opinion is between the system spelling out how things work in advance and giving this knowledge to the players to use during the game and the system not spelling it out and leaving it completely to DM discretion and putting the player in the dark.

As a player, I want to know how things work before I act and make tactical decisions based on that. The more "how things work" is left in the DM's hands, the less I can do this and the less happy I am with the system.
 

Balesir

Adventurer
Bottom line: you're exercising your own judgment.
To some extent this is true of everything in life. That doesn't mean that I want to buy products that just tell me to "use my own judgement" - I had got that far before I ever made a purchase.

I don't quite get this. Is the DM saying that the attack misses and the player saying that it hits and the dice decide? Seems to me that players and DMs aren't really contesting anything most of the time.
Close. The general run of play should be that the player describes what their character does and it just happens. Where it does not "just happen" is when it is "conflicted" - whether you consider that to be by the GM, by the system or by the logic of the dramatic or game structure is fairly immaterial.

The rules just give you a language to describe what happens and introduce some limited realism and gameplay.
The rules provide information to all parties - especially the players - concerning when those "conflicted" actions will arise, how those actions will be resolved and, thus, the advisability and likely outcome of any actions the player may decide to have their character take. "Realism" and "gameplay" are possible side-effects, but neither is actually either neccessary or automatic.
 

JamesonCourage

Adventurer
One quote for me in a sea of replies to Lanefan.
This, again, seems to be talking about "houserules" set up beforehand rather than making up rules in media res because the rules themselves are deliberately ambiguous.
I don't know if you did, but I feel like you're replying to my quote out of context. I was commenting on why I like "Rule 0" in a rule-heavy game -it allows the GM to say "I've overriding the rules for this reason" while still leaving the players very empowered, since they still have very clear rules in other areas (and lots of other areas, preferably).

To me, this has nothing to do with "houserules" being set up beforehand (especially since it extends to an in-play decision by the GM to change the rules, if it lines up with "common sense" [as determined by the group's social contract], which I also mentioned).
I agree that Rule 0 is often used for enabling railroad plots and GMPC "neat tricks",
I want to point out that I didn't say this. I said that abuse of Rule 0 is also accompanied by GMs who also railroad you or have problem GMPCs in the game.
but I think there's a thin, thin line between this and building situations and NPC abilities based on how the GM imagines the "real physics" of the system will work. If I build an NPC with a spell that is loosely and ambiguously defined, of course I design them using my interpretation of the spell as a basis. If I set up an in-game situation involving ambiguously defined elements, of course I set the situation up assuming my interpretation of those elements - how could I do otherwise? But, if the players don't share my understanding/interpretation of those rules, it will naturally seem to them that the NPC is advantaged, or that the situation is contrived - even if that was far from my intent.
So, you agreement with my preference for clear rules, as I stated in the post that you quoted? To be fair, maybe you missed the context of my conversation with Hussar; I do state it more explicitly in my previous post to Hussar that he then questioned:
JamesonCourage said:
I think that it's a good step, and that's coming from someone who loves incredibly codified systems that cover as much as possible so as to empower to player ("the book says I can do this" and therefore I can reliably build a character with that in mind).
I'm all for clear, codified, rules-heavy systems that the players can rely on. I just like Rule 0 for my group; the post goes on to say "It's just a different style of play, though. It's a terrible step for some groups; it's a good step for mine. Just a play style thing."

So, you can disagree with me if you'd like, but I'm not sure why you are. You seem to be trying to argue with me over something I'm not trying to say. I'm not advocating "ambiguous" rules; I'm advocating the opposite of it, with a "GM override" button. Obviously, as I said, this is good for some groups, and not for others. Luckily, the "GM override" will always be there for any group, even if the game doesn't say so; and, luckily, even if it does say so, groups that don't like it can ignore it.

Win/win no matter the setup, right? As always, play what you like :)
 

Hussar

Legend
Just to go back to the point about rules and player judgement.

Your PC is in combat with a guy on a horse. You decide to push that guy off the horse. How do we resolve this action?

In AD&D, AFAIK, there aren't really any specific rules here, so, it might be a strength check, it might be an attack plus a strength check, it might be an attack plus a strength check plus a saving throw from the target. Since the rules are largely silent on this issue, it's pretty much up to the DM to decide what to do.

In 3e, it's a trip attack. The player knows before he announces the action exactly what he needs and the consequences are of his declaration.

In 4e, it's a bull rush (or various trip/forced movement powers) and again, the player knows exactly what's going on.

This is where the problem comes with forcing DM's to be rules creators. Say I rule that it's just a strength check to knock the guy off the horse. Now, that would be WAY too easy and a very easily abusable rule. It's a bad rule. But, the system specifically empowers me to make that determination. And, until the rule gets abused a few times, I might not know that it's a bad rule. Go to the other end of the spectrum where it's three separate rolls, any of which can cause the action to fail. Too difficult, but, again, I might not know that until trying it several times in game.

For me, the bottom line is, most people are not game designers, nor do they have a really great grasp on statistics and odds. I most certainly include myself in that category. I don't want to have to play amateur game designer in the middle of the session. I have no problems with baseline rules that cover large numbers of situations, that's fine, but, please, give me the baselines.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
For the rest, I find that the pitfalls are manifold. Take "fire doesn't burn without oxygen", for example. Does this mean that a fireball doesn't work underwater? If yes, then I would throw back that "fire doesn't burn without fuel", either, but the fireball still works just fine without the caster carting around cans of gasoline. Does this mean that the fireball spell doesn't work out of water, either? Or does it mean that the "laws of physics" just don't apply to fireballs? If the second, then I would argue that you have just proven that "fire doesn't burn without oxygen" is not a "rule" that need apply in the game world at all, so, if you insist on it, it's purely arbitrary.
Fireball isn't the best example, as my original point amounted to "use real-world physics except when dealing with magic", and a fireball is magic.

What's needed is some sort of brief description of how magic might fit in with the rest of known physics. I long ago dreamed up the idea that magic is in effect a fifth force (along with gravity and three others I forget now) which a few people have learned how to shape and manipulate into effects that wreak merry hell on the usual laws of the other four forces. Many creatures - in fact, all non-mundane ones - rely on this fifth force in order to exist.

This also nicely allows for wild magic.

Balesir said:
To clarify, my position is this:

- Considered houseruling of a system is OK where needed; on the fly rulings and deliberate rules ambiguity are not because they gimp players of understanding they should have of how the (game) world works and frequently cause unintended consequences.

- Every group, for every game they play, should ideally pick a ruleset closest to (or most easily houseruled to) what they want out of the system for the game they want to play. If houserules reach a book-full, you might want to consider other start points.

- D&D, specifically, is one just possible ruleset that might be chosen.
By the time the houserules reach a book-full the last thing I want to do is abandon all that work and start over learning and tweaking a whole new system. Instead, I'll just keep on kitbashing the system I've already built as defined by said book-full of houserules.

Balesir said:
... if you must change the rules:

- Consider it carefully beforehand, including figuring out why you want the change and checking that you are fixing the bit that actually needs fixing (for you).

- Notify all involved about the change in advance and entertain objections and reservations (maybe allowing some character changes or tweaks to address those).

- Review the changes as time goes by and be ready to rethink if the change has adverse consequences that are worse than the original issue.
Rarely if ever will I make a significant change during a campaign unless it involves only things that have not yet come up in play. For example, in my current campaign I can still mess around with high-level MU spells as 98% of them haven't been seen in play yet. But I wouldn't want to tweak the low-level ones until my next campaign.
Balesir said:
I think it's also worth being clear about different types of addition/change. I don't for example, consider creating new "monsters" to be a system change - any more than creating NPCs or locations is. If the world has orcs with one hit die, I don't consider adding in orcs with two hit dice to be a "system change", but changing weapon damage so that it reduces CON instead of hit points would be a different kettle of fish!
Adding something minor that wasn't there before at all (e.g. new monster, new spell, new magic item) is almost irrelevant for these purposes. Ditto for removing something, particularly if it's never been seen in play in that campaign.

Adding something major (e.g. entirely new PC class or race) in mid-stream is something I'll only do in unusual circumstances, otherwise I'll just wait until the next campaign. Removing something major always waits.

Same for changes.

I would be a little careful, there. If magic items are supposed to be only "found in treasure" or "hideously expensive to buy", a bunch of monsters having just what they can usefully use can look a lot like some sort of "GM's creatures are all in the conspiracy" set up. Are we considering that the monsters - but not the characters - can exchange items freely in a worldwide "magic mart" network? Or that the world-spanning conclave of black-hat mages cooperate to supply all the world's monsters with what they need?
Perhaps not, but I see what you're getting at.

That said, nothing bugs me more in published modules than supposedly-intelligent foes who don't use resources available to them e.g. the Fighter carrying around a potion of haste who doesn't drink it once things start going badly for her...

Balesir said:
The players I run for handle it pretty simply (in D&D 4e); each item goes to whoever can best use it. After the run, the monetary values are totalled out (using a spreadsheet), but the values are used merely as a guideline for who gets to make choices about spending fungible wealth.
OK, so you do equalize it later.

I've seen situations like this where no later equalization took place. They got messy.
Hussar said:
In 3e, it's a trip attack. The player knows before he announces the action exactly what he needs and the consequences are of his declaration.

In 4e, it's a bull rush (or various trip/forced movement powers) and again, the player knows exactly what's going on.
How can the player know what's going on? She has no idea of the rider's horsemanship skill, or whetherthe horse is trained or not, etc.

And do these attacks go against the horse or the rider? Tripping someone on a horse (your 3e example) makes no intuitive sense whatsoever; but tripping the horse itself certainly does.

Lanefan
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Just to go back to the point about rules and player judgement.

Your PC is in combat with a guy on a horse. You decide to push that guy off the horse. How do we resolve this action?

In AD&D, AFAIK, there aren't really any specific rules here,
Get a Ransuer (or one of several other pole-arms, like a Glaive-Guisarme, IIRC) and roll to hit his AC.
 
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