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D&D 5E With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️‍⚧️
As Victim stated, there are plenty of things that "don't make sense." If something sits ill with you as a DM, would it not be better to discuss the issue, rather than throwing the book away? Maybe some players like a DM charging through the "nonsensical", but I prefer a DM-player dynamic that encourages trust, not fear.

Who says we're throwing the book away? The reason we play D&D is because it does a reasonable job most of the time.

This is a problem with a certain style of arguing, particularly around the issue of rulings rather than rules. That I prefer to rely on rulings when there is a conflict between the rules and our vision of the fantasy milieu doesn't mean I'm throwing the book away. It means I'm going with a ruling for my table rather than a bad rule from that book.

And if I'm doing a good job by my players that will do more to build trust in my judgment than adhering to rules will.
 

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D'karr

Adventurer
He may, but the quote you cited is largely orthogonal to the issue Balesir raised.

Gygax is talking about fidelity to the spirit being superior to fidelity to the letter. No one with half a brain argues against that (though there are plenty of people on the internet demonstrating how it goes).

As a DM I'm expected to provide a "consistent" view of the game world to both the "character" and the "player". I do that by making "consistent" adjudications. If something was "green" when I ruled about it yesterday, it should be "green" when I rule about it today, unless there are "extenuating" circumstances that make it different. And I should be ready to explain those. When a new case comes on the scene I use the previous cases to "weigh" how I'm going to rule. I try to maintain whatever precedent I've already established.

When a new game comes on the scene, I don't go changing all the rules to fit "my view" of how they should work. I need to get used to the rules, and understand their basis before I go changing them. And I should change the rules with the full knowledge of the game group.

As a player I expect a "fair" and "consistent" DM. I expect that if a rule is going to be changed without my prior consent (not a known houserule) that I will have the opportunity to change my action. As the "character" I should have a fair understanding of how the "world" works, which the "rules" in some way provide. As a player I need to be able to make informed decisions. If I'm playing checkers and the opponent, after I've taken one of his tokens, tells me that I need to move my token as a knight in chess would, I'd expect that I can change my mind. The rules have changed, and it should not be a surprise. Players are not mind readers, and as a DM, I shouldn't expect them to be.

Balesir is discussing what are good solutions when the spirit and letter are in conflict, not whether they ever are. Gygax's solution is fine as a stop gap. You are running some game, and something comes up that is obviously in conflict with the spirit of the game. So you make a ruling. But outside that environment, and certainly once you talk about reasonable game design, it's a lousy option. If you've got a rule that is that much in conflict with the spirit, change the rule so that DMs will not need to fix it!

Correct, either the game needs to change the parameters of the particular rule (errata, second printing, faq, etc.), or the DM with the players have to come up with a reasonable alternative (houserule).

Part of the presentation problem with 4E is that very distinction. All that syrupy crap about saying yes all the time, with no discussions of the edge cases, is exactly against the spirit of what 4E is trying to do elsewhere in the ruleset.

I saw the "say yes" mentality as a better alternative to the, usually reactionary, "say no" option. The suggestion in the books was not "ALWAYS say yes". Oftentimes as DMs we want "our vision" of something to be the base. I've found that the "say yes" suggestion opens up many more doors. "Yes, and", as well as "Yes, but" are great additions to a DM's repertoire. "No, and", as well as "No, but" are still available too.

The whole idea of flexible, narrative mechanics is that you roll with it when it makes sense, establish what makes sense as it happens, and then build from there. (You might do a "reset" for a new campaign or such, but you'd have some consistency.)

Yep, and good consistency as well as flexibility is key. There has been more than one time that we've reversed a long standing house rule because we came to understand the underlying rule better, or we saw that the houserule was "fixing" a problem that didn't really exist in play.

That is, if someone otherwise happy running 4E who doesn't want the players to have any kind of narrative control, then said DM should ban CAGI and/or house rule it to work some other way. They should not allow it under some mistaken fidelity to the letter of 4E making power choice a player decision, but then effectively neuter that decision by arbitrarily imposing their vision of the power. If the spirit of the rules is important enough here to rule on, it's important enough to either ban the power or state the conditions that make it acceptable.

And that is part of the needed consistency. If, as a DM, I'm going to ban something, or make it work differently because of "my vision", then I need to make sure that the player that took the option is aware of the change, and is able to change his choice based on this "new" information. There should be very few surprises when the player is attempting something that their character is supposed to be able to do. They should have available at their disposal an "informed" decision making process.




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Imaro

Legend
One of the things I'm a little unclear on in this discussion is exactly what players/PC's should and shouldn't be aware of... I get if a DM decides to change how a power works overall the knowledge of that change should be shared with the players... But what about a situation where I've decided that in my world fire elementals can't be hurt by fire... do I need to inform or consult the players about this? Is this any different than me creating a custom monster that is similar to a fire elemental but that has invulnerability to fire? Do the players/PC's know all the capabilities, vulnerabilites, powers, etc. of the various monsters? Should they before engaging with them?
 

But what about a situation where I've decided that in my world fire elementals can't be hurt by fire... do I need to inform or consult the players about this? Is this any different than me creating a custom monster that is similar to a fire elemental but that has invulnerability to fire?

No - but for a change like that I'd probably tell them. It's changing a default assumption and Elementals are a fairly well understood class of monsters within the game world. It isn't mechanically different from a custom monster but because it's an elemental it probably needs a couple of seconds of warning.

Do the players/PC's know all the capabilities, vulnerabilites, powers, etc. of the various monsters? Should they before engaging with them?

Certainly not!
 

Imaro

Legend
No - but for a change like that I'd probably tell them. It's changing a default assumption and Elementals are a fairly well understood class of monsters within the game world. It isn't mechanically different from a custom monster but because it's an elemental it probably needs a couple of seconds of warning.



Certainly not!

Cool, but what do you think (barring dungeoneering, religion, arcana, etc. checks for monster knowledge) players (as opposed to PC's) should know about monsters? As an example if this is your first time encountering an elemental... how do you know a fire elemental can't be or can be hurt by fire?
 

jrowland

First Post
This is what I mean by "first you must consider what the players are intended to do". I mean, quite literally, what is occupying their thoughts as they play - what must they make decisions about that are entirely within their own purview (i.e. those where neither the GM nor the system tell them what decision to make)?

tThen we are in agreement. Those "thoughts as they play", is the fluff, and once those thoughts are formed, we next turn to mechanics. Thus, Fluff-first.
 

Cool, but what do you think (barring dungeoneering, religion, arcana, etc. checks for monster knowledge) players (as opposed to PC's) should know about monsters? As an example if this is your first time encountering an elemental... how do you know a fire elemental can't be or can be hurt by fire?

I think that sort of knowledge should be about DC 10 (if that) - very widely known and told in bards' tales as farce one way or the other.

Now if you are encountering an obscure monster, that's a whole different story.
 

jrowland

First Post
Well yes. OTOH, there are numerous ways to map fluff to mechanical expression. The Dying Earth RPG has little to do with DnD. There's the traditional 1-3e Vancian magic system. A wizard packing 1-4 dailies in 4e maps pretty well with Turjan level wizards who prep at best a fistful of serious spells and then rely on other skills or magic items the rest of the time.

Of course. You could start with mechanical expressions first and then try to map fluff to it, altering the fluff to fit. My argument isn't that you can't. Its that its a poor approach. I doubt anyone starts with nothing but numbers and then figures out how to make a setting map to those numbers. I imagine in every case, a setting (high fantasy, cyberpunk, dragons, no dragons, etc) is first in the head, the mechanics are designed to fit that vision.
 


D'karr

Adventurer
One of the things I'm a little unclear on in this discussion is exactly what players/PC's should and shouldn't be aware of... I get if a DM decides to change how a power works overall the knowledge of that change should be shared with the players... But what about a situation where I've decided that in my world fire elementals can't be hurt by fire... do I need to inform or consult the players about this? Is this any different than me creating a custom monster that is similar to a fire elemental but that has invulnerability to fire? Do the players/PC's know all the capabilities, vulnerabilites, powers, etc. of the various monsters? Should they before engaging with them?

I wouldn't tell the players, unless their characters made their monster knowledge check. How would the characters know any way? If they make their check they get specific things including immunities at certain points. I'd tell them at that time.

If they don't make their checks they will see the effect when it happens, because I'll let them know that the creature does not seem affected by the "fire". They can decide on their own what that means. That is all part of being immersed in the game world.
 

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