D&D 5E Poll: What is a Level 1 PC?

[FireLance]

Average person can do a fine job of crafting stuff without being high level.

• +2 for 14 in the relevant stat (seems pretty reasonable).
• +5 for skill ranks (we'll say he's level 2).
• +3 for Skill Focus: Profession (whatever).
• +2 for masterwork tools related to the profession.

+12 total. Taking 10, that's a guaranteed success for quite a few tasks. Taking 20, that's a guaranteed success for most everything.

Well, first off, the "average" person would not have 14 in a relevant stat. The "average" person would have 10 or 11. The "slightly above average" person would have 12 or 13.

Second, in 3e, crafting requires the Craft skill, not the Profession skill. It's a minor point, but it shows how easy it is to make minor mistakes. If you make a minor mistake and the players notice, it ruins consistency, and hence (according to some arguments) verisimilitude. If you make a minor mistake and the players don't notice, then the effort spent in the failed attempt make it consistent would have been wasted in the first place.

Finally, in the same way that you can't take 20 on a Perform check (as pointed out earlier), you can't take 20 on a Craft check or a Profession check because there is a penalty for failure. I reiterate the point about how easy it is to make minor mistakes.

 

[FireLance]

A 4th-level commoner would probably beat a 1st-level fighter if you're using WBL.

Frankly, a 4th-level commoner, with 3,300 gp of wealth (3.0 NPC wealth by level tables) just needs four riding dogs (600 gp, 150 gp each), 7 ranks of Handle Animal and Skill Focus (Handle Animal).

The 1st-level fighter is toast.

 

[Cadence]

Well, first off, the "average" person would not have 14 in a relevant stat. The "average" person would have 10 or 11. The "slightly above average" person would have 12 or 13.

The median person (in a straight 3d6 world) would have a 14 in something though (array of 7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 14) . So a decent bonus wouldn't be unreasonable in whatever the typical person was best suited for.

 

[Grydan]

The median person (in a straight 3d6 world) would have a 14 in something though (array of 7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 14) . So a decent bonus wouldn't be unreasonable in whatever the typical person was best suited for.

Ahh, but in a versimilatudinous medieval-esque western fantasy world, is the typical person employed in the labour he's best suited for, or is he employed in the labour that his station in society has restricted him to? If your father was a goat farmer, and his father was a goat farmer, and his father was a goat farmer, then the fact that you've got stats best suited to being a court minstrel does you little good: someone's got to run the family goat-farm, and congratulations, it's you.

 

[Hussar]

The only lesson to take from that is not to buy WoTC adventures that were were proofread by unpaid interns who dont really care about their job performance. Thus, dont buy WoTC adventures.

But then we all already knew that for various reasons.

Umm, I'd point out that WOTC was hardly alone in this. Go through Dungeon magazine, or any 3pp module and you'll see mistakes in stat blocks in pretty much every single adventure. Again, if the professionals can't get it right, I'd say that the math is a bit too onerous.

 

[Hussar]

I've never had NPC Classed NPCs go higher then 2nd level unless there was good reason. I have had some aristocrates go up to 10th level though. But past 5th level never really happens.

The Royal Blacksmith (2nd level Expert Human Age 56)
This wizen looking man with a brutish attitude has lost some stamina over the years but has kept all his skill.
Str 12 Dex 10 Con 9 Int 16 Wis 12 Cha 9
Hp: 7
AC: 11 (Leather Apron)
Attack: +2 w/ smithing hammer 1d4 +1
Fort -1, Reflex +0, Will +4
Skills: Weaponsmithing +11, Armorsmithing +11, Blacksmithing +8, Bowmaking +8, locksmithing +8, Trapmaking +8, Appraise +8, KS: Exotic Metals +8, Open Lock +5
Skill Focus: Weaponsmithing, Skill Focus: Armorsmithing

The above feels right for me. This would be your typical human master blacksmith in my game world. Very few people would be better than this but of course there would exceptions like the PCs.

Your average blacksmith is a genius and smarter than about 80% of the people around him? And he makes bows? Why? Traps? Why?

Your average blacksmith is a level 1 commoner with Blacksmithing. This guy is way, way beyond average. Heck, he's already got elite stats which takes him, by RAW, well above average. Remember, average people have 10's across the board.

And a blacksmith with a 16 Int and a 12 Strength and a Con PENALTY? Really? This is believable?

 

[Hussar]

The median person (in a straight 3d6 world) would have a 14 in something though (array of 7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 14) . So a decent bonus wouldn't be unreasonable in whatever the typical person was best suited for.

But, again, we're ignoring the system. The system flat out tells you that the average person has 10's or 12's. That's it. They don't get ability bonuses AT ALL. 25 point buy value is baseline for Adventurers who, by definition, are meant to be a cut above the common.

KM - my problem isn't that the peasant gained levels by killing goblins, my problem is that he gained levels at all. Why? Why is he gaining levels. If he's killed enough goblins to gain 3 levels, he's been in literally dozens of life threatening fights. Why isn't he dead? It's ridiculous. If your farmers are fighting off the goblins time and again, why do they need the PC's?

I'll buy the farmer surviving a fight or two. Fair enough. But twenty or thirty? When people are telling me that he shouldn't even be able to take on a wet behind the ears town guard? How is that believable?

And, if we're going to ignore the combat elements of level anyway, why bother with level at all? Peasant - Skill Farming +X. Done. Throwing in four levels of commoner doesn't add anything. Doesn't help anything and simply needlessly confuses things.

And, hey, if people REALLY want to do the work, be my guest. There's absolutely nothing stopping you from adding class levels to NPC's in any edition of D&D. It's only 3rd that tried to make a rigorous model of it. There's nothing stopping anyone from whacking on levels of whatever to NPC's in any edition. Heck, in AD&D, the only thing level did was change your combat stats. 4e? No problem. Tag on whatever level you feel like. Go for it.

But, don't make it the baseline assumption for the game. It's unnecessary and just leads to too many mistakes.

 

[JamesonCourage]

Your average blacksmith is a genius and smarter than about 80% of the people around him? And he makes bows? Why? Traps? Why?

Your average blacksmith is a level 1 commoner with Blacksmithing. This guy is way, way beyond average. Heck, he's already got elite stats which takes him, by RAW, well above average. Remember, average people have 10's across the board.

And a blacksmith with a 16 Int and a 12 Strength and a Con PENALTY? Really? This is believable?

I'm kinda curious if you read his post rather than skim the stats he posted (and I meant skim, not read). I'm not trying to be snarky, but didn't he address most of what you asked (including in the title of NPC)?

 

[FireLance]

The median person (in a straight 3d6 world) would have a 14 in something though (array of 7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 14) . So a decent bonus wouldn't be unreasonable in whatever the typical person was best suited for.

Actually, even in a straight 3d6 world, a stat array comprised completely of 10's and 11's is more common than one with any bonuses and penalities, so that would be closer to the "average" (specifically, the mode) than those individuals whose poor results in certain abilities happened to be balanced out by better than average results in others.

That said, although on a straight 3d6 basis there is only a 16.2% chance that any stat will be 14 or higher, the fact that you are rolling for six ability scores means that the probability of getting a 14 or higher for at least one stat is about 65.37%.

So yes, if there is a reasonably high correlation between a good stat and putting points in a skill that uses that stat (whether you're a goat farmer because your father was a goat farmer is beyond the scope of this study), then it is quite likely that a craftsman, professional or performer would have an Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma score of 14 or more.

However, arriving at this conclusion is a lot more involved than "just use the (11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10) array" or "just use the non-elite array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8)".

Which is kind of the point, actually.

 

[Sunseeker]

A moderately trained individual with greater potential.