Star Wars: Dark Empire

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I'd completely disagree, citing the scene with Yoda (as is reflected in the scene in the graphic novel, too) where the Jedi Master tells Luke that size does not matter. To me, he's not just talking about weight and mass, but also telling Luke that anything is possible with the Force if it is used correctly.

Meh. Yoda's words do not match any onscreen evidence. Vader didn't snatch X Wings out of the sky, or crush the Falcon in Empire. Yoda or Windu didn't do anything like that in the prequels. Luke didn't wipe out AT-STs with a flick of his hand in Jedi.

Nah. This force magnification isn't the same universe we're shown in the movies, soundbyte quips notwithstanding.
 

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Water Bob

Adventurer
Meh. Yoda's words do not match any onscreen evidence.

Were you able to catch my Edit comments above before you posted this? I think that's a lot of onscreen evidence.

And, I will say this: The way it is presented in the story, this could be a power--even a Dark Side power, like the choke Vader uses--that Luke has just learned. Both of these thoughts would quite fit into the overall story of Dark Empire.

Luke had just spent several days on Corscant, and he is first seen exiting the ruins of Palptine's palace. The first visage of him is an outline of Darth Vader, which we see is really a caped Luke, his hair casting shadows in such a way to reflect the shape of the Dark Lord's helmet, that steps into the light. That's FANTASTIC foreshadowing, by the way, for the story the Dark Empire tells.

What Luke did or learned or experienced while he was nudging around the Emperor's palace, we are not told...but, he could easily have learned something...new....and dark.





Vader didn't snatch X Wings out of the sky, or crush the Falcon in Empire. Yoda or Windu didn't do anything like that in the prequels. Luke didn't wipe out AT-STs with a flick of his hand in Jedi.

I don't think that's necessary. Must we have already seen everything that is possible with The Force?

What if, with the new film, we are shown a new Force power, never seen before....?

Before Empire came out, did you have a problem with Luke and Vader doing some of the things that they did? Certainly, it hadn't been established in A New Hope.

Also, remember that certain powers seem to be unique to some individuals (I'd believe that they're not unique, but not available to all Jedi/Sith). For example, Vader is the only character to use the choke. Palpatine is the only character to use the energy lighting.

Then Kenobi and Yoda are the only two we've seen "disappear" and merge into the Force. Qui-gon certainly didn't do that. Nor Mace Winu. Nor Darth Maul, Vader, or Palpatine.

I don't find it hard to believe at all that there are lots of uses of the Force that we haven't seen.





EDIT: Also remember that the Force is the strongest within the Skywalkers. Anakin and Luke are supposed to be two of the most powerful Jedi that have ever existed.

Maybe the command that others have over the Force will not make it possible to crush an AT-AT's head, but for Luke Skywalker? Now, a Master Jedi Knight, 8 years after he used the Force to destroy the Death Star?

Totally possible.



2nd EDIT: I'll even go this far, too. Maybe it's not possible, even for the great Luke Skywalker, to crush an AT-AT's head under normal conditions. But, remember, in my description above, the AT-AT fired it's blasters at the Master Jedi, and the bolts were reflected back at the vehicles head, doing severe damage.

On a brand new, undamaged AT-AT, it may not be possible. But...what if Master Jedi Luke Skywalker saw an opportunity and took advantage of it. The command module hull was weakened by the reflected blast. Luke simply used the same power we saw in The Empire Strikes Back when Vader would rip pieces of machinery out of the walls and send it flying.

In simple terms, maybe he saw a stress point and....used the Force to push on it.
 
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Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Were you able to catch my Edit comments above before you posted this? I think that's a lot of onscreen evidence.

And, I will say this: The way it is presented in the story, this could be a power--even a Dark Side power, like the choke Vader uses--that Luke has just learned. Both of these thoughts would quite fit into the overall story of Dark Empire.

Luke had just spent several days on Corscant, and he is first seen exiting the ruins of Palptine's palace. The first visage of him is an outline of Darth Vader, which we see is really a caped Luke, his hair casting shadows in such a way to reflect the shape of the Dark Lord's helmet, that steps into the light. That's FANTASTIC foreshadowing, by the way, for the story the Dark Empire tells.

What Luke did or learned or experienced while he was nudging around the Emperor's palace, we are not told...but, he could easily have learned something...new....and dark.







I don't think that's necessary. Must we have already seen everything that is possible with The Force?

What if, with the new film, we are shown a new Force power, never seen before....?

Before Empire came out, did you have a problem with Luke and Vader doing some of the things that they did? Certainly, it hadn't been established in A New Hope.

Also, remember that certain powers seem to be unique to some individuals (I'd believe that they're not unique, but not available to all Jedi/Sith). For example, Vader is the only character to use the choke. Palpatine is the only character to use the energy lighting.

Then Kenobi and Yoda are the only two we've seen "disappear" and merge into the Force. Qui-gon certainly didn't do that. Nor Mace Winu. Nor Darth Maul, Vader, or Palpatine.

I don't find it hard to believe at all that there are lots of uses of the Force that we haven't seen.

Sure. OK. I can't prove a negative. The Force can change ice cream flavours, create black holes, and change people's gender.

My point wasn't the nature of the powers, it was the sheer scale of them. Crushing a scout walker's head is vastly more powerful than anything anyone on screen ever did. Heck, in one computer game I recall a Jedi destroying an entire Star Destroyer.

It seems odd to me that Vader had all that power at his disposal and just limited himself to throwing around a couple of crates and choking a guy.

Clearly - to me - the Force was subject to power creep over the course if various books, games, what-have-you.

But I'm not trying to convince you of anything. Your Star Wars clearly differs in tone to mine. That's OK.
 

Water Bob

Adventurer
My point wasn't the nature of the powers, it was the sheer scale of them. Crushing a scout walker's head is vastly more powerful than anything anyone on screen ever did. Heck, in one computer game I recall a Jedi destroying an entire Star Destroyer.

I think we're posting at the same time, and you've been missing the edits. Check out my 2nd Edit above. I think that might be an explaination of which you will approve.

Take that into consideration, and the fact that Luke does nothing of the kind for the rest of the story.

I think I like that explaination better, too.




It seems odd to me that Vader had all that power at his disposal and just limited himself to throwing around a couple of crates and choking a guy.

If it's as I speculate in the 2nd Edit above, then Vader did have the power.

But, either way, I don't think, as I said above, that all Force powers are available to all Jedi/Sith. Otherwise, we'd see them use the same powers.

I remember Yoda's fight in Episode II with Count Dooku. Dooku threw electricity, like Palpatine, but Yoda's power was defensive...to catch it and reflect it back.

Remember Vader absorbing the Han's blaster fire in The Empire Strikes Back?


But I'm not trying to convince you of anything. Your Star Wars clearly differs in tone to mine. That's OK.

Could be. But, I think my 2nd Edit explaination brings use closer in taste than you might think, right now?
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I'm on a phone; sorry. I can't maintain a non-linear edited pre-referential conversation! It turns it all into hard work on this small screen. Sorry!

But there's no traffic in trying to convince someone that their preferences are in error. :)
 

Water Bob

Adventurer
I'm on a phone; sorry. I can't maintain a non-linear edited pre-referential conversation! It turns it all into hard work on this small screen. Sorry!

But there's no traffic in trying to convince someone that their preferences are in error. :)

Just discussin' Star Wars, man. It's just Star Wars. No worries.
 

Water Bob

Adventurer
I just finished the Dark Empire Trilogy. That was one of the best graphic novel experiences I've ever had. If I have any gripe at all, it's that the last part of the trilogy, Empire's End, is too short. That tale is less than half the length of the first two.

The three stories play out like a film trilogy, though. The climax was breath-taking.

For those of you tempted, I don't think you'll regret spending the $20 bucks. It's a hard back book with top quality production value. The Star Wars story told is amazing. And, the book can sub as a gaming supplement, giving you characters, stories, ideas, new equipment, planets, background, ships...to create an entire campaign around it.

If you use WEG's D6 Star Wars, there is a Dark Empire Sourcebook that you can still obtain relatively inexpensively. I own this book and can vouch, now that I've read the graphic story, that it brings to the game much of the Dark Empire experience. I'm not sure if the d20/Saga Star Wars game ever had a sourcebook for this, though there may well be a fan-created e-book. I know that many of the d20/Saga Star Wars supplements have been converted to D6 and are available online (typically, you have to own the d20/Saga product because the conversion only brings you D6 stats).

If you're interested in playing out the Dark Empire campaign, there are a number of ways to do it. Use the graphic story as your base and adapt as needed. Though the story has much to do with Luke Skywalker, the re-emergence of the Jedi Knights, and the Sith, I think it would be easy to even create a game, based on these events, that focus on non-Force sensitives. For example, if the players were playing Rebel Commandos, the plot focus could be altered a bit, without much fuss, and still be a fantastic Star Wars campaign.

Let's look at some ideas just using the opening of the story (re-read my first post, above, on Dark Empire).

The opening scene is set in the orbit of Coruscant after a large space battle has taken place. Large hunks of debris--even pieces you can recognize as parts of a Star Destroyer--make orbit a crowded place.

The Millennium Falcon and two Rebel Frigates exit hyperspace and begin to maneuver around the space junk. One of the frigates slams into a large section of a blasted ship, then it explodes, too. The Falcon makes its way towards planetfall, zooming and zipping among the stuff.

Let's just take that little bit. Think of the different ways to game that.

1 - You can play it just as its written, placing the PCs on the Falcon, on their own ship, or even as members of the crew of one of the Rebel Frigates.

2 - Put some Imperial fighters into the scene. Make them hide among the debris, then break out a space battle, with the added problem for the pilots of having to maneuver around all the space junk. Or, go wider, and have an Imperial Capital ship, still active, among the debris. If the Rebels are underpowered, this would be a great time for them to take out a capital ship as you could weaken the enemy ship by having it still suffer from the damage it took in the previous battle.

3 - Maybe the PCs aren't Rebels at all. Maybe they're a squad of Bounty Hunters! They've come here, as fast as they could, because they know there might be prey for the taking amongst the survivors. Or...maybe the PCs are...salvagers--other Fringe types, pecking over the remains of the dead, looking for upgrades for their ships and expensive equipment for the taking.

4 - You could start a story about a regular guy who ends up becoming a hero...let me think. OK, off the top of my head: He's just a maintenance tech on the Rebel Frigate that slammed into the debris, mentioned earlier. The first situation he needs to deal with is damage control in the part of the ship he's in. Then, he's got to figure out how to escape. Maybe he takes an escape pod that lands him near the action on the surface of Coruscant. But, on the trip, something strange happens to him. He blacks out. He has a dream. Is it foreshadowing? Is it the Emperor calling him? Wait! The Emperor is dead! This guy is Force Sensitive, but he never knew he was Jedi material. This trip to Coruscant is the event in his life that has awakened his calling of the Force. Maybe he sees Luke Skywalker deflect the Walker's bolts with his lightsaber, then crush the AT-AT command module. He's AMAZED at this display of The Force. He's never seen anything like that. Skywalker notices him...and becomes his mentor? Or, maybe that comes later, and the story is about his growth in the Force as the events of Dark Empire unfold.

Let's see what you could do with this: You've got three players, and all three want to play Wookiees. Maybe one of the knows Chewbacca (maybe they're relatives!). One is the exiled ambassador from Kashyyyk. The other is the ambassador's head of security and personal bodyguard. The third is the ambassador's aid/right hand man/second in command/assistant ambassador. All three are warriors.

What can you do with that? Which ship are they on? Why are they coming to Coruscant, on this rescue mission, under these circumstances?

Just use your imagination. Get creative. Your Dark Empire campaign could resemble but be vastly different than the graphic novel experience.

There's lots of ideas here. Just add your own, and your game grows.
 
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Water Bob

Adventurer
I also read Darth Vader and the Lost Command. I'm not as excited about it as I am with Dark Empire (although the art in Lost Command is superior). I think that's because Dark Empire is an old school, epic, Star Wars experience. Lost Command has more of the feel of the prequels, but I'm not saying it's bad.

Not at all.

In fact, it's the most emotional Star Wars graphic novel I've ever read. I don't want to say much, because I'm afraid I'll say something that will destroy the impact the book will probably have on you.

What I recommend you do, if you're interested in this book, is go back and view Episode III, Revenge of the Sith. Then, immediately start this book. I think you might be amazed at the depth.

The climax is truly chilling.

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Water Bob

Adventurer
Next up on the reading list: Star Wars Crimson Empire. It takes place immediately after the events chronicled in Dark Empire.

This is another epic. The hardback I have is over 500 pages long, containing all three Crimson Empire stories, the two side stories, and the Crimson Empire Handbook.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Star Wars, baby! STAR WARS!

I'll give you a taste....





The lights go down. You see and hear the familiar 20th Century Fox logo and music as you munch from your gigantic bucket of heavily buttered popcorn.

BLAM! THE MUSIC STARTS! Followed by the opening crawl.

STAR WARS

CRIMSON EMPIRE

It is a time of turmoil. The last of the Emperor Palpatine's clones has been destroyed by the Rebel Skywalker and his allies, and control of the Empire is up for grabs. A temporary ruling Council has formed behind the scenes to maintain order, but the Council itself is splintered--divided by the conflicting ambitions of its members. Intrigue, deception, and betrayal are commonplace as those who would replace the Emperor pursue their goals.

One man, Carnor Jax, holds sway over the Council. He knows the secrets about the members of the ruling body that could destroy their control and further weaken the Empire. He uses this knowledge to force the creation of a special position for himself within the Council.

Jax's plan is actually much more ambitious than the Council members know: he seeks to position himself as a new Dark Lord--with the aid of the equally ambitious General Wessel--and eventually ascend to Palpatine's throne.

One other knows the Council's secrets--and Jax's ambitions. Hiding on the Galaxy's outer edges, he bides his time, awaiting his chance to destroy them all....




As the gold words disappear at the top of the screen, you're staring at the familiar star field. Then the view pans down. You're looking at a brown-ish planet with a ring system. This is Zaddja, a mostly barren planet far beyond the center of Imperial activity.

Zoom. A ship passes from underneath you onto the screen. It's a small cruiser.

"Landing party, this is the Destiny. Do you read me? What is your situation?"

"Ah...Destiny. This is Landing Party. We lost three ships coming through the asteroid shroud, but squad two is intact."

"Then, what are you waiting for? Squad Two, proceed with your mission."



The scene changes to the surface of the planet. A ship in the distance, it's boarding ramp open. A long stream of white figures trail across the rocky terrain. Stormtroopers.

They approach a structure in the side of the rock. It's obviously a door--the entryway to the tunneled out interior. You see the stormtrooper commander wave commands at his squad. The troopers fan out, moving into flanking positions, weapons ready.

One trooper moves to the door. His hand stretches out. He grips the handle...

BLAM!

The explosion vaporizes him and most of the troopers.

The squad commander is thrown back down the side of the hillface, his armor scraping on the rock. When the dust settles, you can see that he's still moving.

"Squad Two...eh...to Command," the trooper is breathless. "Location was a...ah...a trap."





Now the scene changes again, on a different world. Green trees rise in the distance before you. Three close moons can be see in the night sky. Phaeda. A trading world. Under Imperial control, it's still a haven for smugglers, thieves, and others who wish to escape the notice of the Empire.

Your point of view is now over the spaceport. Modern structures rise in the distance. Air traffic is brisk. A block-shaped transports lands on a pad.

Now we cut to the closed hatch on that transport. The angle is low. The doors open, and we see a pair of black boots of a biped exiting the craft, trailing a cloak.

There's a platform guard that raises his hand, "Show your identification and state your business."

Now, we see the top of the figure, but his face is hooded with a cowl. His arms move beneath his cloak, "I am but a traveling merchant, looking for a new trade. My identification." He hands the platform guard a small box.

The guard opens the lid, then eyeballs the figure from under his helmet. You can now see what the guard is looking at--coins. Imperial credits. The guard tips the box. The coins fall into his gloved hand. "Yes. Go on about your business."

The cloaked figure resumes his path into the port, and in the distance over his shoulder, you see the guard move to another figure on the pad. "You there, halt!" But, you can barely hear what he says.




Now, the view is of the inside of a tapcafe. The place is full of business, aliens and humanoids alike. Your view moves to a table of Imperial Officers. you can hear their discussion, but you also notice, in the distance, that the cloaked figure has entered the bar.

In moments, one of the Officers notices the robed man, who has taken a seat nearby. "You! Why are you listing to conversations that do not concern you!"

There is no idication that the robed man heard the Imperial speak. And, the Officer rises from his chair and approaches the other's table. "Speak up, man!"

The voice once again exits the dark opening in the man's cowl. "You and your group have nothing to fear from me. Why don't you return to your table and enjoy what's left of the evening?"

The Officer pulls his sidearm, and his comrades stand to back him. "Don't you know that when an Imperial Officer asks you a question, you has best give a direct answer?"

Now, the cowled man stands, but still, you cannot see his face. "I'll ask a second time--return to your table, and you won't be harmed."

The Officer smiles, but there is a look of incredulty in his eyes. He's pointing a blaster right at this imbecile! His arm raises, pointing at the man's head...

But, before that small action is completed, the cowled man moves like lighting. His arm jets out from under the robe. He's holding a long, cylindrical device. Long blades fire out of both ends, making it a double bladed polearm. Helocoptering over his head, the weapon slices through the Imperial's gut, and the man falls.

All this...before the Imperial could raise his blaster from his waist to point at the cowled one's head.

The other Imperials are stunned. They look down at their fallen comrade, bleeding on the ground, then back up at the armed warior, who's face they still cannot see.

"Let me pass," the warrior tells them, "and I'll let you live."

Of course, Imperials aren't that smart. One moves. They all move. And the warrior becomes a ballet of death.

Other patrons scramble to get out of this killing machine's way. Stormtroopers enter the scene, but this does not even slow the man in the robe. He slices through them like an aircraft propeller, moving almost as if in a dance.

The action stops. The point of view is high, looking down. The robed man stands, with Imperial bodies all around him.





Good God, I'm ready for another epic. And this one...it's not your standard Star Wars.

I'm intrigued.


STAR+WARS+CRIMSON+EMPIRE+III%25E2%2580%2594EMPIRE+LOST+%25236+Cvr.jpg
 

I have to agree with Morrus. There was a lot of Force Power Creep in Star Wars. I preferred the novels where it was still a more ... subtle effect. If telekinetically raising an X-Wing out of water is subtle. But you know what I mean.

Yoda was strong, but he didn't throw the X-Wing around - he moved it up slowly. I could live with him being able to do this even with a Star Destroyer (at that speed) - but that doesn't turn him or any other Jedi capable of destroying an AT-ST telekinetically.
 

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