Pathfinder 1E Multiclassing - Make 'em train for it, or just give it away?

[BuckyLastard]

After last night's session (no, the party has not been taken by the slavers yet), the fellow who plays the Sorcerer, informed me he'd like to multiclass with his eye on the Eldritch Knight. He wants to take a Barbarian level when he makes fourth level. I have no problem with this, except I prefer characters to learn their new class from someone who has the class rather than just hand it to them. (The one exception I feel is Sorcerer which could pop up anytime. I mean who really knows all the skeletons in their family closet?)

Since there is no Barbarian in the party now this means he'd have to search out one to train him. I suggested that since there is a Fighter in the party, perhaps this would be an easier option. Turns out he wants the hit die, movement, and the rage ability. When I stuck to my guns about the training he became sour and left rather quickly.

So what's the over-riding opinion out there for multiclassing? Give it away or make him earn it?

Also I'm not clear on the ability to cast spells while raging. Seems to me that would require a roll on the concentration chart. I see at 10th level the Eldritch Knight can cast a spell if he confirms with a critical attack, would this also require a roll on the concentration chart? Seems to me that casting while striking a critical hit should be considered "extremely violent motion while casting", or am I being too hard-assed?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Andor]

AFAIK you can't cast while raging. Yah, here it is: "While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function." - The SRD.

That having been said I personally would be inclined to allow trainingless multi-classing into Barbarian moreso than almost any other class including sorcerer. Fantasy is full of tropes of heros who need guidance to unlock their magical inner potential, whereas the barbarian is just a guy with a bad temper. See Andy in The World's End for example. The training related stuff would be the weapons and armour proficiencies, and I don't see why the fighter couldn't teach those.

As far as casting on a critical goes, I would assume that the force of the critical blow leaves the Knight enough of an opening to cast a spell in combat as his opponent reels. Unless the ability specifies otherwise I wouldn't call for a concentration check barring other factors like another character threatening in melee, then I'd call for the standard cast in melee check unless it's a swift action.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

So what's the over-riding opinion out there for multiclassing? Give it away or make him earn it?

By making it to 4th level, he will have already earned it. If it makes you uncomfortable, why not throw a barbarian NPC into the party for a session or two? That way you both get what you want.

As to raging spell casting, it appears to be perfectly legit. The text does mention that rage precludes "any ability that requires patience or concentration," but sorcerer casting can easily be fluffed to not need either. Besides, I think if spell casting were meant to be precluded by rage, it'd be specifically mentioned in the text. (Spell casting is a common thing, after all.)

And a second besides: The things a barb can and can't do while raging is purely a fluff restriction, and they don't make much sense even so. I mean seriously, how do acrobatics and ride not require concentration?

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

I think it's a reasonable requirement, and an opportunity for a side quest.

Clearly, the player simply wants to level dip for some abilities, which I'm generally against. Your suggestion forces him to put at least a little roleplay effort into it, which makes it more acceptable. If he's unwilling to do so, then he can suck it up and go without.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

AFAIK you can't cast while raging. Yah, here it is: "While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function." - The SRD.

*Quietly points out the PF tag*

 

[N'raac]

After last night's session (no, the party has not been taken by the slavers yet), the fellow who plays the Sorcerer, informed me he'd like to multiclass with his eye on the Eldritch Knight. He wants to take a Barbarian level when he makes fourth level. I have no problem with this, except I prefer characters to learn their new class from someone who has the class rather than just hand it to them. (The one exception I feel is Sorcerer which could pop up anytime. I mean who really knows all the skeletons in their family closet?)

Since there is no Barbarian in the party now this means he'd have to search out one to train him. I suggested that since there is a Fighter in the party, perhaps this would be an easier option. Turns out he wants the hit die, movement, and the rage ability. When I stuck to my guns about the training he became sour and left rather quickly.

So what's the over-riding opinion out there for multiclassing? Give it away or make him earn it?

So if he started as a 1st level Barbarian, then multiclassed into Sorcerer, that would have been OK? Either way, he'd be a L3 Sorcerer/L1 Barbarian at 4th level, but he has to do more for one than the other? Have you discussed what will be required of him to be an Eldritch Knight?

I don't see a right or wrong answer here. I do think the RAW suggest a lot of training goes on in the background, and multiclassing is easily part of that training. Is it less "realistic" that he can gain a level of Barbarian than that he can choose specific spells, feats, skills, etc. when he gains levels? That the Fighter can learn Improved Disarm, or the Wizard can learn his choice of two specific spells, with no trainer who already possesses this knowledge and skill?

I would actually be more inclined to restrict prestige classes, as these are part of the campaign world, then multiclassing to standard classes. That said, I think the spellcasting restriction noted above may speak against Barbarian for a character largely focused on multiclassing.

 

[N'raac]

BTW, to the "pathfinder tag", Rage does not allow any action which requires concentration. You must concentrate to cast a spell. So the "no spells while raging" rule extends into Pathfinder, but you need to check both Rage and Spellcasting to find it.

 

[Andor]

*Quietly points out the PF tag*

Oops my bad. Well then. From the Pathfinder SRD.
Barbarian Rage: "While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration."
Spell casting:"Additionally, you must concentrate to cast a spell."

Seems pretty clear cut. Spell casting while raging is verboten by RAW, but or course you can house-rule anything you like.

 

[paradox42]

Regardless of what feels "realistic," the fact of the matter is, PF is a game first and foremost. You have to be fair to all the players, and that means that if you don't require training to level up in even one class, then you shouldn't require training to level up in any class at all. Conversely, if you do require training to level up in one class, then you should always require training to level up in all of them. Multiclassing is just a default assumption of the game; there's no logical reason to force training on a PC doing that if you don't require it in all cases. More importantly, having the possibility of no training for some things while requiring it for others is blatantly unfair to those who are saddled with the training requirement and will tend to make those players angry.

As a caveat to the above, requiring training for prestige classes while not requiring it for base classes is reasonable- because the whole idea and definition of prestige classes in the first place is that they require specialized training to get (that's why they have prerequisites).

As for the Eldritch Knight ability, if the ability needed the EK to make a Concentration check, then it would say the check is required- if you put such a requirement in, then you're seriously nerfing it from the standard rules. An EK is basically "Magus lite," and Magi have the ability to cast while fighting in melee from level 1 using Spell Combat- no Concentration check required unless they happen to get hit by an AOO while casting. It's just like fighting with two weapons, for them. In light of the existence of that ability, the proposed change to an ability gained by a prestige class at 10th level (and thus, its capstone) is clearly a rather severe nerf with no logically consistent reasoning behind it. So without question, too hard-assed by far.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Spell casting:"Additionally, you must concentrate to cast a spell."

Seems pretty clear cut. Spell casting while raging is verboten by RAW, but or course you can house-rule anything you like.

Ah yes, the spell casting comment does make the intent pretty clear cut -- although the fact that the PF guys excised this particular restriction from the rage text makes one wonder...

In any case, this is the kind of restriction I waived during my 3.x days, because it amounts to "Barbarians aren't allowed to do delicate things while raging, except for delicate things we the designers think he should be doing." Naturally, I encourage other DMs to do the same.