Ask an OTTer

[Kramodlog]

Question:
Do OTTers generally prefer to argue rather than discuss? It does seem to me that some folks would, indeed, rather pick a fight for the hell of it rather than simply discuss a topic for better understanding. Is my impression of you correct, or am I misreading? (On a different forum, years ago, there was a clique who claimed the forum was their own personal Fight Club, and they were open and up front about it.)

Bullgrit

Truth is, we are very opiniated, but is arguing picking a fight? Does disagreeing mean you can't discuss a topic?

 

[JamesonCourage]

Sorry for the delay, I had errands to do before work.

This isn't a store, though. You're not going to get punched in the face for saying something out of turn.

I'm not really afraid of that happening at the store most of the time, either. I'd still just tell an employee.

By the way, I'm not asking anyone play at being a mod, I'm simply asking that we talk about what we can talk about.Remember, we're new here and we come from a very different place. We're not gonna understand the culture if people don't engage and they'll never understand us either.

I hope we can understand one another through a civil conversation, then.

I'm the OP. Hmm ... maybe this is just another culture difference.

I meant "original post" and not "original poster", but yeah, I imagine there is a "culture difference" here. Nothing inherently wrong with that; there were "factions" within EN World long before you guys migrated over.

Solve something how? Honestly curious

Mod warnings and potential bannings if the behavior wasn't curbed. I'll repeat myself, though: "but I'd definitely prefer civil discourse, yes." I just didn't see that as a reasonable option based on what I'd observed in this forum thus far.

As you can see it's not as though people are giving us much of a chance.

Well, I have no plans to adapt to your group's style of posting in other threads, so that might mean that we're an at impasse. I don't see how it improves discussion on this site. I like that some new articles are being brought up, but I'm not a fan of the posting style most of the time.

EDIT: That actually brings a question for you to mind: What sort of people post here? I mean, we take all sorts of poo for our posting style and yet it seems perfectly acceptable to plenty of folks here to actively try to get people removed from the site and to do so clandestinely. To me, that's a lot crappier behavior than anything we've exhibited.

*Shrug*

Personally, I don't mind when people I find disruptive get kicked out. In fact, I tend to support that action. It never seems fair to the people I see as disruptive, obviously. But really, I love the moderators here, and the job that they do. I support them, and Morrus' right to "censor" posts he doesn't like on his site. If it means more civil discourse, I'm all for it. If that makes me seem "crappy" to you, I'm not going to work to change your perception.

 

[JamesonCourage]

People need to understand that being playful or silly is not trolling or disrespectful. It is just being playful or silly.

I do understand that. When people make up fake song lyrics about D&D stuff I skip over it, not report them. It's just silly, not disruptive.

I understand that a mod button gives a sense of entitlement that people do not have in real life, suddenly they have the right to be offended and have "justice".

Well, like I said, I usually do have this in real life; I just go tell an employee that I think people are being disruptive, and then I let the establishment deal with it. I basically do the same thing here.

Except people shouldn't expect to be able to standardize people according to their preferences.

There are many, many different mindsets on this site. I have no illusion that everyone must think like I do or be kicked off. What I don't want is the site to go down in quality (in terms of the ability to have a civil conversation) due to some posters. If I feel like anyone is violating that, I'll alert the mods, and move on. If it's just stuff I don't find interesting, or whatever, I'll just skip it. The uninteresting stuff dwarfs the reportable stuff, in my experience.

If people find me abrasive, they can ignore me and I shouldn't be harassed with people reporting anything they do not like.

If I think the site will go down in quality due to anyone's continued posting style, I'll report it. That's not harassment, to me. If someone is in a store and purposefully spilling food on the ground, I don't feel like I'm harassing them if I let a store clerk know about it.

 

[jonesy]

Why so serious? It is just the internet. No kittens will esplode and no butt will split open causing terrible pain if people aren't serious. Honestly, people seem too sensitive about inconsequential stuff. For serious stuff I have my job, for everything else there is he interwebz.

It is not just the internet when you go against someone's livelihood. When you start arguing with someone about a topic that doesn't even seem that important to you personally to the point where you start asking him for his credentials you cross a very big line into the real world. It becomes about his professional reputation. You have stated several times that you aren't being that serious. If that were true you would never have let it get to that point. It's not even a matter of you not knowing about it, since you could have asked him by private message. You didn't. Instead you decided to make it a part of your argument. You have to understand that there are lines of etiquette you do not cross that blithely. And no, it's not even a matter of people here white knighting someone, even though I do think he has earned that level of respect. It's basic manners. You do not take the argument into the real world if it's just supposed to be a fun discourse to you. Again, you could have asked him by private message and you didn't. You were being disrespectful.

Just because you are on the internet doesn't mean you have to take the approach that 'it's just some guy on the internet'. If I go to a social gathering somewhere and there's someone I don't know that I start having a conversation about a topic of expertise with because the topic is interesting, and I disagree with him, I don't turn to the whole room and ask loudly "Is this guy even a [professional of said expertise]? What does he know?" I ask him. You don't automatically make it a public discussion of his merits.

On the topic of you being a troll. You said that you were intentionally trolling Circvs Maximvs. You said that. Why should anyone assume that you are doing something else here? Was that you 'not being serious' (even though your behaviour on CM suggests it's exactly what you did do)? And the thing you said was: "I just wanna bait a asshle who is coincidentally Jewish." You are not making yourself look good.

 

[Kramodlog]

This is not something objective like food being spilled intentionally, opinions are subjective. There is a world of difference between the two and at some point, instead of harassing someone because you do not like what they say/think, you should just ignore them.

I had my share of stalkers on the WotC boards with WotC mods closing their eyes on the matter. I am weary of harassment by reporting and I hope that because you are chummy with mods it will not be the case here. Althought I have my doubts.

Response to JC.

 

[Kramodlog]

It is not just the internet when you go against someone's livelihood. When you start arguing with someone about a topic that doesn't even seem that important to you personally to the point where you start asking him for his credentials you cross a very big line into the real world. It becomes about his professional reputation.

Whoa, let us not blow things out of proportion here. This site is anonymous and I have no credibility. His professional reputation is safe, I won't rape it.

As for his credentials, yeah, I do not know him. That is a fact. Also, I know this might comes as a shock, but people can lie. That is also a fact. Just claiming something on the net doesn't mean that person is telling the truth. Especially with "expert" opinions. I've seen plenty of people who BS like they breathe. So call experts can invent stuff, they can lift stuff from wikipedia, etc. And even if they aren't lying, people can still question their expert judgement. I'm free do to so.

The funny thing is that among OTTers we have a expert on a subject matter and people here still questioned his judgment on a matter related to his expertise this very week. His feelings were not hurt, but he is amused by argument that experts shouldn't be questioned.

You have stated several times that you aren't being that serious.

Indeed, I do not take debates personally. I believe my opinions and will defend them, but I do not get emotionally involved. This just a debate on the net, no need for drama, no seriousness needed.

If that were true you would never have let it get to that point.

What point?

It's not even a matter of you not knowing about it, since you could have asked him by private message.

Ask what?

You didn't. Instead you decided to make it a part of your argument.

Someone claiming something is true doesn't mean it is. I'm sorry if that bothers you, but it is true. Wait... Umm... No... Umm... Yes, it is true.

You have to understand that there are lines of etiquette you do not cross that blithely.

I can question someone so called expertise. I am free to do that. 1) I won't shut up simply because someone declares himself an expert on something. 2) People are right, people are wrong, even experts, and non-experts can question them.

And no, it's not even a matter of people here white knighting someone, even though I do think he has earned that level of respect. It's basic manners.

Ignore me if you think I am a barbarian or feel free to question what ever I say. I do not mind.

You do not take the argument into the real world if it's just supposed to be a fun discourse to you. Again, you could have asked him by private message and you didn't. You were being disrespectful.

He brought it up in public, not me.

Just because you are on the internet doesn't mean you have to take the approach that 'it's just some guy on the internet'.

Have to? No. Can? Yes.

If I go to a social gathering somewhere and there's someone I don't know that I start having a conversation about a topic of expertise with because the topic is interesting, and I disagree with him, I don't turn to the whole room and ask loudly "Is this guy even a [professional of said expertise]? What does he know?" I ask him. You don't automatically make it a public discussion of his merits.

Not what I did. He claimed he was a lawyer, I said it wasn't enough to make his claim right. I didn't ask anyone else for his creditials, but a few people volonteered to white knight a grown man. I would think a lawyer would be able to defend himself.

On the topic of you being a troll. You said that you were intentionally trolling Circvs Maximvs. You said that. Why should anyone assume that you are doing something else here? Was that you 'not being serious' (even though your behaviour on CM suggests it's exactly what you did do)? And the thing you said was: "I just wanna bait a asshle who is coincidentally Jewish." You are not making yourself look good.

Have you seen that place? I was at two posts and I was already being harassed by hate mail. They get what they deserve. You are wrong to think this is the same here, but feel free to ignore me if I upset you.

 

[jonesy]

Have you seen that place? I was at two posts and I was already being harassed by hate mail. They get what they deserve. You are wrong to think this is the same here, but feel free to ignore me if I upset you.

Again: why should anyone assume that you are doing something else here, when your behaviour here isn't visibly different?

 

[Kramodlog]

Again: why should anyone assume that you are doing something else here, when your behaviour here isn't visibly different?

Read my mind. There is no other way.

Altought I am open to your suggestions if you have a better way to know if people are trolling or not.

 

[Jet Shield]

Goldo brings up an interesting point that, at least in part, helps explain some of the OTTer oddities.

You see, the OTTers suffered years of abuse on the WotC boards not just from posters, but from the mods. Completely innocent (and respectful) posts/threads would be deleted or locked without warning and bans handed out with no explanation given. Certain posters that were friends with certain mods would make incredibly inflammatory posts, often filled with blatant personal attacks, and anyone who dared to respond in any way would find themselves smacked with the banhammer. If you were foolish enough to report these personal attacks, you were as likely to get warned or banned yourself as to have anything done about the post in question. These aren't just imagined things. The posters responsible would often brag about it.

If the OTTers seem a little quick to raise their hackles, or growl, it's not at all surprising.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Truth is, we are very opiniated, but is arguing picking a fight? Does disagreeing mean you can't discuss a topic?

Well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y