Why simpler - much simpler - is better

[Dannyalcatraz]

Designing music

As in, composing?

As a musician/composer myself, I have to inquire as to how one composes without an instrument. I mean, yes, there is the conceptual part, and making sheet music can be relatively cheap, but most musicians I know at least play through their ideas on an actual instrument at some point.

Also, ditto Crothian's overall point.

Unless one lives in a remote area, you have to have transportation to get to an area where one would hike.

Your Internet connection is presumably not free, either.

 

[Bluenose]

Anyway, I'm fairly sure that in there somewhere is a game that will suit you pretty well. Have a look round and see what you think. And happy gaming!

There are other games that could go on that list. Heroquest Core Rules, say. It's even got supplements. I've seen a condensed version of that intended for players which included everything they needed for character generation and action resolution in four pages.

 

[Neonchameleon]

There are other games that could go on that list. Heroquest Core Rules, say. It's even got supplements. I've seen a condensed version of that intended for players which included everything they needed for character generation and action resolution in four pages.

It's been on my list to at least read for a while, but not having read it or knowing its characteristics I couldn't include it - I didn't mean to imply that I gave an exclusive list, merely a list of games I knew that fitted my criteria.

 

[billd91]

Nope. Compare it to just about any other hobby. Books are cheap - even big D&D books. How much does anything involving driving cost? Or boating? Hell, RPGs are cheaper than knitting with the amount of yarn people get through. (Once you've bought an RPG you have it).

For people who manage to get a lot of use out of a game book, yes, they're an inexpensive investment. But how many of us have a fairly expensive RPG book they bought that isn't being used extensively. I'd be willing to bet quite a few of us have than one. For someone looking to get into the hobby, it's a daunting price tag and the possibility of using it for hundreds of hours in the future may not be a persuasive argument.

 

[Crothian]

For people who manage to get a lot of use out of a game book, yes, they're an inexpensive investment. But how many of us have a fairly expensive RPG book they bought that isn't being used extensively. I'd be willing to bet quite a few of us have than one. For someone looking to get into the hobby, it's a daunting price tag and the possibility of using it for hundreds of hours in the future may not be a persuasive argument.

If it is expensive for the person to buy a few books then they probably should try to find a different hobby. I love sailing, but it is an expensive hobby that while I could afford to do it I would not be able to do other things like own a home or a car. We all make choices on what to do with out finances and our time.

 

[Umbran]

For someone looking to get into the hobby, it's a daunting price tag and the possibility of using it for hundreds of hours in the future may not be a persuasive argument.

As my thermodynamics professor once told me, "There's no such thing as a free lunch." You cannot get something for nothing. Someone is paying for things somewhere, in some form. Sometimes, that cost is hidden unless we think about it carefully, but it is in there regardless.

But, let's ask a realistic question: how many folks are there who want to get into the hobby, but don't have someone else in the group who can loan them the book until they know if they like it or not?

But, really, if the $20 to $50 for a game book is "daunting", you are probably in really serious financial straights - that constitutes a larger problem than what you can do in a hobby, and we aren't in a position to help. We aren't personal financial counselors, after all.

 

[delericho]

My experience is that it is less the cost that is a barrier to entry than the hundreds of pages of reading that the rulebooks represent. And while we know that you don't need to read the whole of the PHB to get started, a potential new player does not.

 

[Umbran]

My experience is that it is less the cost that is a barrier to entry than the hundreds of pages of reading that the rulebooks represent. And while we know that you don't need to read the whole of the PHB to get started, a potential new player does not.

And I ask, again - how often is someone actually getting into the hobby without someone guiding them?

I'm sure it does happen, don't get me wrong, but how often it happens is important - you don't design your entire offering around a minority of cases unless they are a very important minority.

The game has had these supposedly high-barrier books since AD&D was released in 1978. If it was a game-killer, shouldn't it have already killed the game somewhere in the past three decades?

 

[gamerprinter]

The idea that RPG hobby is expensive compared to most hobbies, is kind of silly. If you're into sports, sports equipment is expensive. If you're into motorcycles, snowmobiling, boating, restoring old cars, flying a single engine airplane, or any number of other hobbies, the cost of a single motorcycle, snowmobile, boat, old car, airplane will far, far outcost anything purchased for an RPG (even an entire lifetime's worth of RPG purchases). Most hobbies have a far greater expense to be involved than RPGs, but as you mentioned, some hobbies have even less investment, but I believe those have smaller number of hobbiests, than most hobbies...

If you're playing Pathfinder RPG, all the rules, plus many third party rules exist at d20pfsrd.com, so as long as you have a computer and internet access (neither of which is cost free) all the RPG rules you need to run your game is available to freely access. You never need to buy RPG books to play some games, as long as rules are available for free online. You can even do your dice rolling using any number of free or low cost dice generators. Aside from paper and pencil (and a PC can serve that purpose too), there is little cost behind that required. On the other hand, if you want more tools and assets to better immerse your players, such as miniatures, printed maps, 3D terrain, etc, it certainly can get expensive. However, those are unnecessary to run an RPG game, working only as options for those who want to spend money to make the game more exciting for them.

Simple isn't always better. I enjoy nuance in my games. Sometimes success or failure of a given task is not enough, often I need to know how successful or unsuccessful a given task is achieved - other resolutions to a given task might be available aside from a blanket pass or fail. If rules don't allow nuance then its too simple. Rules don't have to be overly complex, but some level of complexity may be necessary to make for a better play experience to some people. We are all different and have different levels of what we need a game to provide to make the most of it. Simple works for some groups, and not for others.

 

[Zhaleskra]

I am a believer in the idea that a game's rules can be too simple. That is part of why I didn't pick up D&D4E: it simplified things that to me weren't complicated to begin with. A game that is too simple is one that I will stay away from.