The war against standard light bulbs really grates on me. I work in industrial recycling and get to handle CFL bulbs all the time. ( you should see the gear we wear to protect ourselves against the mercury) CFL bulbs are a toxic nightmare. The majority of which are improperly disposed of creating tons of toxic waste or even if properly disposed of requiring plenty of resources in specialized machines and man hours to get rid of. Incandescent bulbs do not have this issue. If bulb breaks you might get cut but that's as dangerous as they get. Read the warning and disposal directions for a broken CFL bulb sometime if you like nightmares.
Incandescent light bulbs get a reprieve in the US
tomBitonti
Adventurer
Seems strange to force what should eventually become an economic no-brainer:
When cost effective and good replacements, non-incandescent bulbs should eventually replace incandescent's without forcing the issue.
What seems needed are not bans on incandescent bulbs, but policies which unblock the use of replacements. Probably, we should also have a better association of the true cost of power to its price. Hits to the bottom works pretty well to kick folks into action.
Thx!
TomB
When cost effective and good replacements, non-incandescent bulbs should eventually replace incandescent's without forcing the issue.
What seems needed are not bans on incandescent bulbs, but policies which unblock the use of replacements. Probably, we should also have a better association of the true cost of power to its price. Hits to the bottom works pretty well to kick folks into action.
Thx!
TomB
Sometimes, the point here it becomes an economic no-brainer is well past the point where the aggregate cost of the behavior has become notable. Sometimes, you want folks to change their behavior well before the new behavior becomes bleedingly obvious.
Kind of like wanting folks to go to a doctor *before* they develop obvious clinical signs of heart failure....
Also, some people will always spend $1 now and $1 next week and $1 the week after that and the week after that, rather than pay $2 now and $2 next year.
Some companies are that way, too. They're not going to spend capital funds to update the plant *this* quarter; that would affect stocks the wrong way.
Bullgrit
Adventurer
I don't know about everyone else, but when I buy lightbulbs, it's usually because one has burned out and I just need to replace it. Sure, I'll probably buy a 4-pack of the bulbs to have for the next time any burn out. But other than when we first move into a home, we don't buy all the bulbs in the house at the same time.
That means, if one bulb out of a 3-, 4-, or 5-bulb fixture needs to be replaced, I get a duplicate of the bulbs already in the fixture. Otherwise the fixture looks bad with a mix of bulbs for months to a year-plus until the others need replacing.
Also, the new "swirly" bulbs look stupid in a fixture where the bulb is visible.
I'm not opposed to the longer-lasting bulbs, at all. It's just that bulbs aren't something I think about much, and I don't naturally think of them as an "investment" -- they're quick fix purchases. There may be "normal-looking" new bulbs, (vice the swirly kind) that are available, but again, bulbs aren't something I research into. I just pick up a pack when I need to when I'm out shopping for other stuff.
* Edit: I just looked up the cost of 60-watt bulbs at Target.
4-pack of normal bulbs = $8.19
4-pack of CFL bulbs = $12.48
Hmmm. The CFL bulbs use only 13 watts of energy -- only 21% of the normal bulbs. OK, maybe I should start getting these for concealed-bulb fixtures. But we have a lot of fixtures with exposed bulbs. Hmmm, again.
This is the most research I've done for light bulbs ever.
Bullgrit
That means, if one bulb out of a 3-, 4-, or 5-bulb fixture needs to be replaced, I get a duplicate of the bulbs already in the fixture. Otherwise the fixture looks bad with a mix of bulbs for months to a year-plus until the others need replacing.
Also, the new "swirly" bulbs look stupid in a fixture where the bulb is visible.
In my experience buying bulbs, it's more like spend $2 now and then $2 in six months to a year later. Or spend $15 bucks now to replace all the bulbs in the fixture now, and then probably never again.* The annual energy costs are effectively invisible.
I'm not opposed to the longer-lasting bulbs, at all. It's just that bulbs aren't something I think about much, and I don't naturally think of them as an "investment" -- they're quick fix purchases. There may be "normal-looking" new bulbs, (vice the swirly kind) that are available, but again, bulbs aren't something I research into. I just pick up a pack when I need to when I'm out shopping for other stuff.
* Edit: I just looked up the cost of 60-watt bulbs at Target.
4-pack of normal bulbs = $8.19
4-pack of CFL bulbs = $12.48
Hmmm. The CFL bulbs use only 13 watts of energy -- only 21% of the normal bulbs. OK, maybe I should start getting these for concealed-bulb fixtures. But we have a lot of fixtures with exposed bulbs. Hmmm, again.
This is the most research I've done for light bulbs ever.
Bullgrit
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tomBitonti
Adventurer
Not sure if this crosses a no politics line. But ...
Are folks really unable to plan ahead to make optimal choices?
And, when folks don't plan ahead, should the government step in and coerce "better" behaviors?
And, when the choices are not entirely obvious (the push to more efficient bulbs has been hampered because the replacements were initially substantially less useful than the bulbs being replaced), I'm very skeptical about allowing others to make my choices. Even in the case of light bulbs, given the rapid advanced in technology, I'm still not convinced that folks should in most cases be using the new bulbs, given the pace of advancement compared with the lifetime of the bulbs.
Now, there are a number of obvious cases where folks make very poor choices (credit debt, gambling, substance abuse), which seem to argue that folks should be forced more often to different behaviors.
Yet, in spite of this, I find the problem seems to be that folks are actively encouraged to poor behaviors: They are bombarded with inducements to think poorly. We seem to spend, as a society, a lot of effort inducing poor behavior and degrading folks ability to act responsibly.
Anyways, this pushes the discussion either towards the out-of-bounds line, or is already past it. Not sure if we should continue.
Thx!
TomB
Are folks really unable to plan ahead to make optimal choices?
And, when folks don't plan ahead, should the government step in and coerce "better" behaviors?
And, when the choices are not entirely obvious (the push to more efficient bulbs has been hampered because the replacements were initially substantially less useful than the bulbs being replaced), I'm very skeptical about allowing others to make my choices. Even in the case of light bulbs, given the rapid advanced in technology, I'm still not convinced that folks should in most cases be using the new bulbs, given the pace of advancement compared with the lifetime of the bulbs.
Now, there are a number of obvious cases where folks make very poor choices (credit debt, gambling, substance abuse), which seem to argue that folks should be forced more often to different behaviors.
Yet, in spite of this, I find the problem seems to be that folks are actively encouraged to poor behaviors: They are bombarded with inducements to think poorly. We seem to spend, as a society, a lot of effort inducing poor behavior and degrading folks ability to act responsibly.
Anyways, this pushes the discussion either towards the out-of-bounds line, or is already past it. Not sure if we should continue.
Thx!
TomB
Unable to? No. But they often don't. Especially when "optimal" concerns the longer-term, or concerns beyond their own immediate lives or wallets.
Sorry, but what government should or should not do is certainly politics.
tomBitonti
Adventurer
Bagpuss
Legend
Now I'm confused, you would rather have a hot and fragile incandescent bulb near a toddler?
In Europe it has been difficult to buy incandescent bulbs for a good few years.
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tomBitonti
Adventurer
I tried CFL bulbs a few years ago, and found them to be unsatisfying, and really useful only in a few places. The color was unfriendly, and the time to reach full luminosity was a problem. I found that by the time a bulb reached the necessary brightness I'd already moved past needing that particular bulb.
LED bulbs, on the other hand, have been great. The range of options is not yet quite where I want it, but I've been able to replace a number of fixtures with good results. I rather like obtaining multibulb fixtures which I can turn on and off per bulb, for a range of brightness. Because of the higher efficiency of the bulbs, I can put more lumens in a fixture than I could before for a nice bright light. There are also daylight LED bulbs, which I rather like.
Prices are annoying, leading me to replace bulbs in small batches. Mostly, in frequently used locations. Eventually, I should have most bulbs replaced, but I'm OK with reaching that point over a bit of time.
There are some locations where the bulbs don't fit very well, or the usage isn't convenient, for example, in a hanging chandelier type fixture which uses small bulbs. I haven't found good bulbs yet for such locations.
I have found some of the quoted figures to be iffy, for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_fluorescent_lamp
$90 for 30 bulbs???
Also, both types of bulbs can be broken by dropping the bulb. In either case, the cost of the accident is quite a bit higher than for a basic incandescent, and this is something to factor into the costs.
Thx!
TomB
LED bulbs, on the other hand, have been great. The range of options is not yet quite where I want it, but I've been able to replace a number of fixtures with good results. I rather like obtaining multibulb fixtures which I can turn on and off per bulb, for a range of brightness. Because of the higher efficiency of the bulbs, I can put more lumens in a fixture than I could before for a nice bright light. There are also daylight LED bulbs, which I rather like.
Prices are annoying, leading me to replace bulbs in small batches. Mostly, in frequently used locations. Eventually, I should have most bulbs replaced, but I'm OK with reaching that point over a bit of time.
There are some locations where the bulbs don't fit very well, or the usage isn't convenient, for example, in a hanging chandelier type fixture which uses small bulbs. I haven't found good bulbs yet for such locations.
I have found some of the quoted figures to be iffy, for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_fluorescent_lamp
$90 for 30 bulbs???
Also, both types of bulbs can be broken by dropping the bulb. In either case, the cost of the accident is quite a bit higher than for a basic incandescent, and this is something to factor into the costs.
Thx!
TomB
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