The Great D&D Schism: The End of an age and the scattering of gamers

[Hussar]

Including regularly playing with guys so dense that they can't figure out if it's their turn yet even though nothing had happened in the meantime (and needing to continually ask to boot)?


Will the 5e teaser starts where this one ends, an hour into the 4e combat with most of the group either slumped over the table in exhaustion or playing WoW on their laptops, while the other two argue about choosing which exact power to use while swinging their swords because the flavor text and name for the best power makes absolutely no sense in context?

I have to admit, I wouldn't bring it up FIVE YEARS later as an example of why WOTC is such a bad company. But then again, I rarely get offended by this sort of thing. It doesn't bother me in the slightest. But, I can see that it does bother some people greatly, so I would suggest to WOTC that they should avoid this sort of thing in the future.

Oh, and Derren, what you see as flavourful, I see as completely fiddly and pointless. Who cares that 3e brought in some bogus arbitrary numbers into the grapple check? All that it meant was that very large creatures with improved grab basically automatically won grapple checks. Whoopee.

 

[Bluenose]

And of course you have a hard time grappling something exactly 1 size larger than you. Or have an easy time grappling something smaller than you. Oh wait, you don't. This size difference is not taken into account. But don't let facts get in your way...

Evidence please? I'm quite sure you're considering the cases where people wrestle horses to the ground - wild horses, note - or such phenomena as cow-tipping, but I'm not at all convinced that the difficulty can't be explained by factors other than size - strength, agility, balance, etc being obviously important.

 

[Herschel]

And of course you have a hard time grappling something exactly 1 size larger than you. Or have an easy time grappling something smaller than you. Oh wait, you don't. This size difference is not taken into account. But don't let facts get in your way...

Creature stats are based on the creature type, baking in difficulty of larger and smaller creatures difficulty of grappling. I'm sorry you don't possess this knowledge but then if you actually know/acknowledge the full information your view doesn't hold water.

 

[Hussar]

Well, the difference here would be that in 3e, creatures get a double whammy. You get a bonus to strength based on your size, which increases your grapple check, and, your size directly increases your grapple check as well. (Conversely, being smaller you get double penalised)

Apparently, that's somehow more believable than simply giving big creatures big strength scores with which to resist grapple checks.

 

[Herschel]

I don't really find it offensive per se, it's just a bad advertisement, and a false one. The game didn't stay the same.

That being said, your comment could equally be applied to all the supposed issues it was talking about. No one is bothered unless they're trying to be by the grappling rules or the identity of miniatures the balance between classes or anything else on the list of things that suddenly became huge problems when they decided to ditch the OGL and make a new and different game.

The 3E grappling rules were terrible. Even my die-hard 3E fan friends acknowledge and joke about it. They've all houseruled it out for a system that's streamlined and makes sense. It was widely panned by the fanbase and has been a great meme.

Class balance was also an issue widely panned by a large portion of the fan base. 3E removed the balancing factors on spellcasters with Concentration, ability to bypass spell resistance, etc. while ramping up their power. Those who believe/want spellcasters to be objectively more powerful love it, those who don't, don't, regardless of the rest of the system's merits.

The OGL was an abomination of a business decision. Sure, gamers may like it but for WotC? Dancey and whomever green-lighted that idea are lucky to have done it in the 20th century when the worst thing that happens is you get fired.

 

[Herschel]

Well, the difference here would be that in 3e, creatures get a double whammy. You get a bonus to strength based on your size, which increases your grapple check, and, your size directly increases your grapple check as well. (Conversely, being smaller you get double penalised)

Apparently, that's somehow more believable than simply giving big creatures big strength scores with which to resist grapple checks.

Yeah, every tall creature is a behemoth and ever short creature is a sluggish weakling is somehow "more realistic"?

 

[Ahnehnois]

Well, the difference here would be that in 3e, creatures get a double whammy. You get a bonus to strength based on your size, which increases your grapple check, and, your size directly increases your grapple check as well. (Conversely, being smaller you get double penalised)

Apparently, that's somehow more believable than simply giving big creatures big strength scores with which to resist grapple checks.

Mechanically it is a double whammy, but it makes enough sense to me. Given that two creatures have the same muscular strength, it seems like the advantages of having a larger mass and a longer reach would be considerable. At that point, it depends on whether you think those considerations are (or should be) considered as part of the creature's strength score. If they are, then yes simply giving a size bonus to strength is enough. If not, then another modifier is needed.

 

[Ahnehnois]

The 3E grappling rules were terrible.

Yes, as were many other things. But their lack of merit was never all that important.

Class balance was also an issue widely panned by a large portion of the fan base.

Not really.

The OGL was an abomination of a business decision. Sure, gamers may like it but for WotC? Dancey and whomever green-lighted that idea are lucky to have done it in the 20th century when the worst thing that happens is you get fired.

It seems to have worked out great for the game and badly for WotC and Hasbro, but that's only because they screwed it up themselves. That said, it's also worked out pretty well for many of the people who worked at WotC when it was introduced who have since used it to make other games and secure their professional careers long after leaving (by whatever means) from WotC.

 

[dmgorgon]

Schisms can be repaired but not fully. There will always be those who refuse to be re-unified. The great schism of the Catholic church between the eastern and western rites is one example of that. The eastern rite was actually unified back into the fold.

You might think that D&D isn't a religion, but to a large extent the community is starting to behave like it is. Perhaps it's only natural because the community is ageing, but in IMO WotC is to blame for all of it.

IMO, 5e must happen regardless of it's success or failure. Even if it fails it's a step in the right direction. If it costs an edition to steer the game back on course then I support it.

 

[Desdichado]

The OGL was an abomination of a business decision. Sure, gamers may like it but for WotC? Dancey and whomever green-lighted that idea are lucky to have done it in the 20th century when the worst thing that happens is you get fired.

It seems to have worked out great for the game and badly for WotC and Hasbro, but that's only because they screwed it up themselves. That said, it's also worked out pretty well for many of the people who worked at WotC when it was introduced who have since used it to make other games and secure their professional careers long after leaving (by whatever means) from WotC.

Yeah, some context helps here. The OGL would probably never have flown in the Hasbro days, but keep in mind that the priorities of WotC when it was owned by Atkinson and others prior to the sale of Hasbro were totally different. I expect that from their perspective even today, the OGL served its purpose remarkably well. And if they don't really like 4e, their decision can be seen as almost eerily prescient.

The only ones who got screwed by it are Hasbro. And even then, not very much, since they didn't buy WotC for D&D; they bought it for Magic and Pokemon.