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Discussion of the Cypher System


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GMMichael

Guide of Modos
Let's talk mechanisms! Er, mechanics... when did they stop being "rules?"

It's great that only 1 and 2 on the Numenera d20 are inherently bad. And this is opposed to the 1-10 that are "bad" on the d20 (system) d20. Does that mean that everyone in Numenera fails less often than characters in d20?

"The goal is to not roll the dice at all."

Bravo. But that statement is a little too simple. Without die rolling, you end up in one of [MENTION=6746469]Dethklok[/MENTION]'s roleplay-only sessions. Dice are actually necessary for adding tension in a way that leaves GM fiat out of the equation. The podcast discusses this, so again, bravo!

"I roll crappy on the die when my character is trying to get on his horse."

What if an RPG allowed you to automatically take certain results on the die? d20 tries this with the take 10 rule, but I think it's a mistake to say that a character can only take 10 when not under pressure.

"The die roll starts the conversation."

I understand why this can be necessary (or conversation precedes die roll), but it just sounds like a bog-down. There are probably situations where you discuss why a situation should be simpler, and situations where action is important, so "conversation" shouldn't be slowing things down. Does Numenera emphasize fast-action by encouraging a fast-track of the conversation process?
 

LexStarwalker

First Post
I don't know that in Numenera you fail less often, though you should be rolling less often. The point of that section is that in Numenera, a roll of a 3 can oftentimes be a success, where in d20 it would seldom be a success. However, I would guess that you do fail less often in Numenera, or at least you fail less often on the rolls you really want to succeed at. This is due to both spending effort and spending xp to reroll.

The point in Numenera isn't to NEVER roll dice, the point is to only roll dice for actions that are dramatically important to the story. And even when you do roll, most actions should be difficulty 4 or lower, so once you add in training, assets, and effort, you often won't have to roll the "important" rolls either. This is a key to the system. On really important rolls, you can remove the chance for failure completely.

I prefer the Cypher system to d20's "take 10" because it's a lot more useful and adaptable. In d20 taking 10 will only help you if a 10 would succeed (with your bonuses of course). With the Cypher system, you can auto-succeed on a variety of tasks with different difficulties by applying varying levels of effort.

Numenera is faster in combat than d20 partly because there is less die-rolling overall (the GM doesn't even roll) and because you're not constantly adding up modifiers. The conversation could be the same, longer, or shorter, depending on the people involved, but regardless combat will be faster. In d20 combat at higher levels gets very dragged out and unfun, if not downright unplayable. In Numenera combat gets faster at higher tiers if anything, because the system doesn't get a whole lot more complex at higher tiers and the players are pros at it by that time.

Numenera doesn't "fast-track" the conversation, it's only that that converstation happens before the die roll. I also like this system because when you roll the die, everyone at the table knows IMMEDIATELY if it succeeded or failed since there's no adding of modifiers. This makes the rolls more dramatic because there's not that break between the roll and knowing if it succeeds or not.
 

Dethklok

First Post
Without die rolling, you end up in one of @Dethklok's roleplay-only sessions. Dice are actually necessary for adding tension in a way that leaves GM fiat out of the equation. The podcast discusses this, so again, bravo!
Why do you summon me into the thread in this way? Even when we do play without dice, we always use "pick a number from 1 to X" or "pick a rock from this bag" or similar randomizer. Dice are wonderful; they're shapely, come in pretty colors, and are fun to roll every once in a while.
 

GMMichael

Guide of Modos
Why do you summon me into the thread in this way?

Speak of the devil, DK, and he appears. If for no other reason, I'd like to hear your take on Numenera rules.
[MENTION=6733461]LexStarwalker[/MENTION]: would you care to explain the effort and xp-spending rules, for us non-Numenera players?

And let me get this straight: if a player reduces a tasks's difficulty to zero, then it becomes an auto-success? And there are no die roll modifiers, just difficulty modifiers? (Wait, how do you hit difficulty 7+?)

Subtle differences. But interesting. I'm not sure they're practically different from the d20 rules, but I can see how they would create a different feel.

Last question: how do difficulty levels work? It's on a 1-10 scale, but who decides what's a 1 or a 10?
 


LexStarwalker

First Post
@LexStarwalker : would you care to explain the effort and xp-spending rules, for us non-Numenera players?

And let me get this straight: if a player reduces a tasks's difficulty to zero, then it becomes an auto-success? And there are no die roll modifiers, just difficulty modifiers? (Wait, how do you hit difficulty 7+?)

Subtle differences. But interesting. I'm not sure they're practically different from the d20 rules, but I can see how they would create a different feel.

Last question: how do difficulty levels work? It's on a 1-10 scale, but who decides what's a 1 or a 10?

I will do my best!

Difficulties in Numenera range from 0-10. Your target number on the d20 is 3x the difficulty. You don't have to roll for difficulty 0. Difficulty 1 you need a 3 or higher, difficulty 2 a 6 or higher, and so on.

You can use Effort to reduce the difficulty of any action. You use Effort by spending points from a pool. If it's a Might action, you spend Might points, if it's an Intellect action you spend Intellect points, and if it's a Speed action, you spend Speed points. The first level of Effort costs 3 points, the second and third levels of Effort cost 2 points each. So 2 levels of Effort costs 5 points, and 3 levels of Effort costs 7 points. At first tier you can only use 1 level of Effort. Any Edge you have in that stat subtracts from the Effort cost. Each level of Effort reduces the difficulty by one.

Being trained in a task reduces the difficulty by one. Being specialized reduces it by 2. You can also have assets (similar to situational modifiers in d20). Each asset reduces difficulty by one.

So, say you want to climb a mountain, and the GM says the difficulty is 3 (target of 9 or higher on the d20). You are trained in climbing and you have climbing gear. Being trained in climbing reduces the difficulty by one, taking it to difficulty 2 (you'd need a 6). The climbing gear is an asset that also reduced the difficulty by one, taking it to 1 (you'd need a 3). Chances are pretty good you'd roll a 3 or higher, but you could always roll a 2, which would fail, and a roll of a 1 is always a mandatory GM Intrusion (although that doesn't necessarily always mean you fail, it's up to the GM). If climbing the mountain is really important, and you don't even want that 10% chance of rolling a 1 or 2 and failing, you could spend one level of Effort, which would lower the difficulty to 0. Then it would be an auto-success and you wouldn't have to roll.

In Numenera you can spend 1 xp to reroll ANY roll in the game. You can do this as many times as you wish, whenever you wish (as long as you have xp). This means you can spend 1 xp to reroll a failed roll you made, or a roll that any other player made. (or another player could spend 1 xp to have you reroll a roll you just failed).

There are die roll modifiers, but they're relatively rare and limited to +1 or +2. If you had bonuses adding up to +3 somehow, you'd reduce the difficulty by 1 instead (although this seems mathematically the same, reducing the difficulty could result in a difficulty 0 task which would mean you wouldn't have to roll).

Difficulties 7-10 are impossible without skills, assets, and/or effort. This is because, as you pointed out, the target number would be 21 or higher, which is impossible to roll on a d20. Numenera does not have an "auto-succeed" if you roll a 20 (instead you get a major effect). However, higher tier characters can make these harder rolls because they will be trained (-1 difficulty) or specialized (-2 difficulty) in the task, and/or have various assets (-1 difficulty each), and/or spend up to 3 levels of effort (up to -3 difficulty).

XP can also be spent on other things like getting a home or base, getting a contact, getting a source of income, getting a limited skill (either limited by time or by place, e.g. picking the locks in a specific structure) and other things. This is all in addition to spending xp for advancement.

The difficulties of 1-10 are all pretty well defined. Each also has a one word adjective associated with it, so once your players are savvy you can use that word instead of the number for better immersion. For instance, difficulty 0 (Routine) anyone can do basically all the time. Difficulty 1 (Simple) most people can do most the time. Difficulty 2 (Standard) is a typical task requiring focus, but most people can usually do it. Difficulty 3 (Demanding) requires full attention, most people have a 50/50 chance to succceed. Difficulty 4 (Difficult) trained people have a 50/50 chance to succeed, and so on. Most tasks should be no higher than difficulty 3 or 4 at the maximum. The higher difficulties are reserved for very dramatic scenes and encounters (like creatures you encounter, super weird tech you try to figure out, etc.).

It is true that from a mathematic perspective adding modifiers or reducing your target are the same, but the actual gameplay of the Cypher System and d20 are very, very different. I think most of us really need to play the game to really grok how fundamental and far-reaching that difference is.

There is definitely strategy and resource management involved, but if you like very mechanics-heavy games, this may not be the system for you. However if you're more focused on storytelling and want a system that's easy to learn, easy to adjudicate on the fly, and easy to teach, then you may love this system.
 
Last edited:

herrozerro

First Post
Speak of the devil, DK, and he appears. If for no other reason, I'd like to hear your take on Numenera rules.
@LexStarwalker: would you care to explain the effort and xp-spending rules, for us non-Numenera players?

And let me get this straight: if a player reduces a tasks's difficulty to zero, then it becomes an auto-success? And there are no die roll modifiers, just difficulty modifiers? (Wait, how do you hit difficulty 7+?)

Subtle differences. But interesting. I'm not sure they're practically different from the d20 rules, but I can see how they would create a different feel.

Last question: how do difficulty levels work? It's on a 1-10 scale, but who decides what's a 1 or a 10?

Edit: Ninja'd

XP

XP in Numenera is used for both advancement and spending on temporary bonuses. Spending various amounts of XP on things will give you different things.

1xp will give you an immediate benefit, rerolling any die roll, even another players. And refusing a GM intrusion.

2xp will net you a short or medium term benefit, like gaining a skill or bonus with a narrow focus. Like gaining specialization in lock picking in a certain area because your character used to be a prisoner in the area. Or alternatively gaining access to an entire ability for a scene or scenerio.

3xp will get you a long term benefit, these are mostly story benefits like a house or a job. An example used in the book is a character working in a library and working with the DM to give that character familiarity in all kinds of research.

4xp is permanent advancement, buying a new skill, ability, gaining more edge or raising your pools.


Effort

Effort is a characters ability to push themselves, spending 3 pool will give you one level of effort, which can be applied in the following manner. Either to make a task one step easier to do, IE a 7 being treated as a 6, or adding 3 additional bonus damage.

A character can only put as much effort out as they have level in it (one stat that can be advanced through advancement)


Modifiers

There are dic modifiers, but if they add up to +3 it automatically becomes a step. (lowering the difficulty by 1.) For example if I have items for a +2 and an assist for a +1 rather than a +3 the difficulty can be lowered from 7 to 6. If a task can be lowered to 0 then it's an auto success.

Difficulty 7, 8, 9 and 10 are considered impossible unless you have training, specialization or bonuses. But it's not impossible to do a 10 difficulty later on with effort and training.


Difficulty

The GM determines the difficulty, there is a section starting on page 86 that deals with how to determine action difficulty. but in general difficulty is 1 of 10 levels and the descriptions are:

Routine
Simple
Standard
Demanding
Difficult
Challenging
Intimidating
Formidable
Heroic
Immortal
Legendary

So yeah, there is some GM adjudication going on, but it takes a bit to get the hang of.
 

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