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D&D 5E What's the rush? Has the "here and now" been replaced by the "next level" attitude?

Celebrim

Legend
When I run Champions one of the things PCs discover is a "What to do in case of..." card in their hotel rooms and what not to clarify the level of environmental dangers in the system.

In case of smoke, if you are on the 10th floor or lower, jump out the window. In case you see an open flame Do Not Approach! Back away and leave the area as quickly as possible -- consider using the window unless over the 30th floor in which case use the stairs to get low enough to jump out the window.

LOL That's hilarious.

Let me think about that, using my rules.

You can probably descend 2-3 stories per turn in D&D using the stairs if you aren't wearing armor. Assuming you have sufficient DEX and no armor check penalty so that tripping on the stairs is a minor risk, and the worst case you can descend out of a 10 story building in about 5 rounds. If everything below you is on fire, at 2d6 damage a round from exposure to hot natural flames, that's 10d6 damage average 35. Once you throw in the delays from smoke, yeah, a lot more than that - probably at least double.

If you jump from a 10 story building, you take 10d20/1d6 damage plus ground strike depending on the surface. You've got a reasonable chance (DC 15 jump check) to do a controlled fall for only 9d20/1d6 damage. If you can arrange to land on turf or a flower bed rather than stone and avoid ground strike damage damage, that would average about 30 damage IIRC. If you hit flagstone though, that would likely be another 1d3+5 damage unless your AC was over 25 or so. If you hit broken scree or jagged rocks, it would get worse. If you landed on the pointy metal fence, it would get even worse. Damage could easily spike to around 50 or 100 damage though, and above 50 you are talking about a traumatic damage save.

So, yeah, your "What to do in the event card..." is actually pretty reasonable for my game. Either way low level characters are screwed, but jumping from 100' has far better chance of success than trying to navigate the stairs unless only a few floors were on fire.

If you are wearing armor or are small sized or less or have a lot of tumble skill, definately jump. If on the other hand you have Fleet of Foot and/or a lot of movement enhancement or you have an Alchemist's Cloak and you have a decent Fort save, probably take the stairs.
 

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Argyle King

Legend
I understand the sentiment, but I think this is partly an illusion. You are "reaching your hands in" as a GM every time you make a judgement concerning what is "realistic". Your model of reality is, assuming that you are like every other human on the planet, both in some respects wrong and in some respects different from those of everyone else. The reason you feel more comfortable making rulings based upon it is that you are naturally disposed to consider it to be "only common sense". Your model represents deeply held beliefs about reality and, as recent research has clearly shown, this makes you extremely reluctant to change it. The truth is, though, that it's no more reliable than anyone else's - and those are not very reliable at all...


At risk of repeating myself, this is a trap - and one that is very easy to fall into. Human beings are fundamentally incapable of simulating all aspects of reality because the models that they believe are true about reality are all wrong. They are a fair approximation for many situations that come up in everyday life, for sure, but outside of that they can be hopeless. In the real world this does not matter, because we have one simulation that is flawless - reality itself! Any misconceptions we have will be swiftly pointed out as soon as we encounter them in person. In a game, though - and one that seldom restricts itself to "everyday life" - such a model is not available. Which is why we so often see blazing arguments between gamers adamantly arguing that such-and-such a system should work in such-and-such a way because that is "realistic"...

The answer is simple. Forget "realism" when playing the game - just use the rules for how the game world works. Consider the real world when designing the rules, fine - there is a lot about the real world that is elegant and neat, so it makes a good source of inspiration. But if you build a system in an attempt to model reality perfectly you are on a fool's errand and doomed to disfunction. And if you try to wrangle the system on the fly to be "realistic" you have the same problems, but now you add those of time pressure, adversarial considerations and lack of player foreknowledge.


If I wasn't willing to change, the style of game I enjoy now would be exactly like D&D 3.5, and I'd play in a manner consistent with the person I was at the time I first learned how to play tabletop rpgs.

I will openly admit that I do not know everything about reality. However, I'm willing to argue that taking an arrow to the face is generally severely crippling or fatal as opposed to being a minor inconvenience. I don't ask for perfect reality, and I hate to even use the word 'reality' when speaking of rpgs, but I expect a certain general ballpark of consistency when compared to what I can see around me. In many cases, that 'ballpark' is very large; a lot of things can fit into it, and I'm even fine with making sacrifices in the name of playability and fun. That being said, when I start to feel as though I'm fighting against a game which should be fun rather than working with it, that -for me- is a problem.

While, yes, I do make judgements, I do so as an out-of-game entity as much as possible. When it comes to in-game, I prefer to meddle as little as possible, and the choices I make for NPCs is (as much as possible) based upon what they can see, hear, know; etc.

As for a fool's errand being trying to make a plausible game. I disagree. While even the games I prefer do have problems and areas which aren't at all realistic to me (an easy example is rapid fire rules; I've fired weapons on burst fire before, and it certainly isn't more accurate,) it is possible to create a game which is close enough and still fun. I'd go so far as to say many of the games I have in mind are far less dysfunctional than I view D&D to be given similar in-game situations.

Can I know how a magic fireball would realistically react to something? Obviously, no, I cannot because wizards and magic do not exist. However, that does not mean I cannot still expect some level of plausibility. I expect that magic fire should burn things; once it comes into play, it should behave like fire. I have no way of knowing exactly what elves might do given a situation, but (in most settings) it seems 'realistic' that they need to eat; that they have hearts and lungs and eyes in a manner similar to humans.

For me, having that plausible baseline helps me; I don't find that it gets in the way. Even now, I'm running a super hero game, and the PCs are capable of doing things which are miles beyond anything that could even conceivably be considered realistic. I'm completely fine with that; it's fine, and I'm highly enjoying GMing the game. However, in spite of all of the unrealistic elements, there is still a shared baseline between myself and the players. I don't believe we've ever run into an issue in which there was a disagreement over whether the guy who can turn his skin into metal would be more susceptible to something like a heat metal spell compared to a normal human being; I don't believe we've ever had an argument over whether or not a hero might still drown after being knocked unconscious and thrown into a river. I don't believe there's ever been a situation in which I said "no, that doesn't work because the game rules say that someone of your level can only do X." Instead, I've more often said "I'll allow you to try, but understand that this is the situation you are up against..."

Maybe I just tend to play/run rpgs in a strange manner. Every time a similar topic comes up, I don't feel that I can relate to what seem to be the usual viewpoints. All I can really tell you is that -for me- the added realism (even if it's not perfect) helps my narrative; it doesn't get in the way of it. I don't in any way find that reality hinders my fantasy; instead, I find that reality does a really good job of complimenting my fantasy and making it feel both more real and more magical.
 

Hussar

Legend
Sure. But Batman can do it. Neo from the Matrix can do it. There are plenty of settings where it would be plausible. Once they understand that we are in that sort of reality, it gets more plausible.

/snip

Would you characterise either character as a single digit level D&D character?

If I want to play Batman, starting from 1st level, what level would I need to be in order to actually be Batman and how long should it take (as in how many sessions) should I wait until I can legitimately consider myself a reasonable representation of Batman?

Is a 1st level character equivalent to Batman? 5th? 10th? Using D&D rules, how long is a reasonable wait until I can claim the cowl?
 

GX.Sigma

Adventurer
Would you characterise either character as a single digit level D&D character?

If I want to play Batman, starting from 1st level, what level would I need to be in order to actually be Batman and how long should it take (as in how many sessions) should I wait until I can legitimately consider myself a reasonable representation of Batman?

Is a 1st level character equivalent to Batman? 5th? 10th? Using D&D rules, how long is a reasonable wait until I can claim the cowl?
In D&D Next, I can pretty much do it starting at level 5 (Monk 1 / Thief 4, with a feat for arcane magic because there's no way Batman wouldn't learn that :):):):) if he could). It only gets really satisfying at level 7 (Monk 2 / Thief 5). You'd even have Slow Fall, and Supreme Flurry to get advantage (for 2d6 Sneak Attack) whenever you want. With DM approval, you might be able to switch out Fast Hands for Assassination (nonlethal of course). The Noble background even gives you a few Alfreds.

D&D Next has the most Batman potential of any edition.
 


Hussar

Legend
...then I'd think you're in the wrong game, and might want to try a supers game instead. :)

Lanefan

I think you missed my point. What I meant was that the campaign started at first level. So if GM is right, then playing by Celebrim's pace, I'm looking at waiting about fifty sessions before I can even start playing the character I want to play.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I think you missed my point. What I meant was that the campaign started at first level. So if GM is right, then playing by Celebrim's pace, I'm looking at waiting about fifty sessions before I can even start playing the character I want to play.
I repeat, if you're looking to play Batman out of the gate then D&D isn't the game you want - at least, not in any form I've ever seen it. Play a supers game and you've got Batman in session 1. Play D&D and you might never get Batman, there isn't (or certainly shouldn't be) any guarantee of a given character even surviving 50 sessions. :)

To carry on with this example a bit, I think envisioning a starting character as Batman (or as the King, or as the Biggest Baddest Wizard In The Land, etc.) before any dice get rolled is entirely the wrong way to go about it, and leads directly to madness. Instead, start with what you start with (OK, for Batman make sure you've got a human male with some brains and physique) and see where it goes. Who knows, developments within the game - or the simple passage of time leading to new ideas - might well make the Batman idea redundant by the time you've piled on some levels. Maybe your strength gets a serious permanent boost at 3rd level but you lose some intelligence, perhaps at that point you abandon Batman and shoot for Conan or Hercules instead. Maybe the campaign has gone on for a year or two and you're no longer interested in being/becoming Batman; you're now basing the character off of Ned Stark. Or Tony Stark.

Lanefan
 

Hussar

Legend
Again, no one is saying to play batman out of the gate. But is it unreasonable to want to achieve the character you do want to play in under about 200 hours of play?

Sure organic developments can be fun too. To each his own. But it's not wrong to actually want to play something either.

Sure you might fail to achieve it. Fine. That's good too. But it should not be considered bad to have an archetype in mind at chargen.

Which brings us back to the op. It's not a rush to want to achieve goals in a reasonable amount of time. I have zero interest in playing a campaign for more than about two years. And I'm certainly not going to apologize for that.
 

Derren

Hero
Again, no one is saying to play batman out of the gate. But is it unreasonable to want to achieve the character you do want to play in under about 200 hours of play?

If it means that you force everyone to play batman in less than 200 hours of play then yes, it is unreasonable.
You want to play a superhero? Either convince your DM to start the game at superhero (epic) level or play a system where being a superhero is the expectation. But don't demand that everyone becomes a superhero in a short amount of time just because you want to play one.
 

Hussar

Legend
If it means that you force everyone to play batman in less than 200 hours of play then yes, it is unreasonable.
You want to play a superhero? Either convince your DM to start the game at superhero (epic) level or play a system where being a superhero is the expectation. But don't demand that everyone becomes a superhero in a short amount of time just because you want to play one.

Wait, what? Who's insisting anything? I'm not the one telling everyone that they're a bad player if they play a different way. I'm not the one claiming that there is one perfect speed, and that speed is slow.

You can claim badwrongfun here, but, I've been pretty clear that I'm talking about what I want, and that's not for everyone to be at the same speed.

I mean, do you honestly believe that 10 or more sessions per level is the only way to play? That it's wrong to level up after about 5 sessions? Presuming 4 hour sessions, I mean. 3e was based on the idea of levelling up about once every 10-20 hours of play. AD&D 1e levelled up at about the same speed, for the first ten levels anyway.

Why is that suddenly a bad thing?
 
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