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D&D 5E MM Excerpt: Bone Devil

Agamon

Adventurer
Well, in a nut shell, yes.

a) As a GM, I don't trust myself to run a scenario fairly between the players and an NPC if the NPC has the power of plot.
b) As a player, I don't trust the GM to run a scenario fairly between the players and an NPC if the NPC has the power of plot.
c) As a designer, I see that many of the worst excesses of 1e/2e were owed to the fact that NPCs were different the than PCs. For example, NPCs could create magical items, traps, or objects with arbitrary abilities because 'plot'. PCs in the same situation had to leap through fantastically high hoops. It was a methodology that excused keeping DMs fully in control of the 'plot' and the sort of solutions that were acceptable.

That's a shame (that may sound sarcastic, it's not). I don't honestly think I'd be playing RPGs if I lacked that trust, myself.


Yes, but this is not a feature.

Not for you, perhaps. Again, that also is a shame. And I doubt any tactical module in the DMG can make monsters in the DMG more interesting, unfortunately. But seeing as the tactical game is indeed a module in the DMG, it makes sense that the monsters aren't complex by default.
 

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Ranes

Adventurer
Yikes, melodrama is not necessary.

You think writing 'oh-the-humanity' before the word 'complexity' constitutes melodrama? Hm. Noted. ;)

First, 5e is a different game, expecting it to be the same as an earlier edition isn't sensible.

Please. First, it's the same game, just a different edition. But without getting bogged down in semantics, people buying into the game from earlier editions are being entirely sensible when they have certain expectations of the abilities of long-established (thirty-plus years) creatures. Yes, things change with editions and sometimes this or that expectation isn't met. The merits or otherwise of that is what we're discussing. But don't accuse those with unmet reasonable expectations of not being sensible.

Second, yes, I think 5e will have creatures that fly and turn invisible by default, I'm not sure where I stated otherwise. I think it already does.

The first sentence answers my question. And it was a question. I did not say you had said otherwise.
 

Celebrim

Legend
And it's less about abilities during the fight as it is off-stage stuff. Summoning minions to send after the party or teleporting away after a confrontation.

That's not 'off-stage stuff'. That's on stage stuff. The fact you've already got the distinction somewhat confused suggests to me I'm right about the reduced complexity being an adjudication problem that is going to lead to railroady behavior by the DM.

"Off-stage stuff" concerns actions taken by the monster that do not directly affect the PCs and which the PCs could not directly witness and which does not imply necessarily that similar things should happen on stage. The PCs can only learn about off-stage stuff indirectly, by observation, or by having the event related to them by an NPC.

1) The monster summons minions to send after the party - On stage.
2) The monster teleports away after a confrontation. On stage.

vs

1) The PCs enter a room. It happens to have minions in it. - Off stage.
2) The PCs discover that the monster killed a NPC within a locked room. - Off stage.

The big problem with running off stage without reference to the rules is that it leaves the players basically unable to reconstruct what really happened and to draw conclusions from it. How did the monster get into the locked room? Can it teleport? Can it turn ethereal and walk through walls? Did it have a key? Did it trick the occupant into letting it in? Is it still hiding invisibly in the room? When DMs state something happened offstage without mentally referencing the rules, they are depriving the scene of the artifacts of concrete actions. Things just happen because, which is wholly unsatisfying as a player because there is no way you can do anything but just follow the story along.

An example of why this can be jarring is Jack's cut scenes when Shepherd first goes to rescue her in ME2. During these cut scenes she single handedly destroys several powerful robots at the same time. This implies that she would be an extremely powerful crewmate. However, in actual game play, particularly initially, Jack is not nearly so powerful. The cut scene implies abilities for an NPC offstage that onstage that NPC doesn't actually have. That's just bad design IMO.

More relevant to PnP, consider the case of a recent murder mystery episode in my ongoing campaign. The murder was done Agatha Christy style, with the evidence suggesting a series of events that did not actually occur. The false series of events was created using some simple magic tricks available to a low level Wizard. The exact spells cast the murderer where known to me and were within the actual capabilities of a wizard of that level, including duration, number of spells of a given level that were used, and so forth. Each spell use tended to create artifacts in the shared imaginary space that could be discovered. For example, the fact that the body stank could be used to determine that the victim had first been paralyzed by Ghoul's Touch, which proved that the murderer must have been a magic user. Even deeper in to consistency, Ghoul's Touch was employed because I know that the murderous NPC could not have dealt sufficient damage with a dagger to kill the dead NPC with a single blow unless the victim was immobilized. It also had other concrete effects - neutralize poison removed the stench, spells like 'Speak with the Dead' could be adjudicated fairly based on my knowledge of exactly what had happened during the murder, and as it turned out, the fact that an NPC I hadn't considered as a witness could see through illusions was critical to the particular method the players used to solve the crime, and so forth.

A DM that needs something to happen - a murder by an NPC - but which doesn't have a limited set of known tools to accomplish it, is less likely to create a followable series of events. Things happen because 'plot', and instead of thinking all this out ahead, the answer is generally either, "No.", or the "NPC gets away because 'reasons'."
 
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jadrax

Adventurer
We've always been able to make things up on a case-by-case basis. But the bone devil has always been able to fly and turn invisible (among other things), until now. Our starting point for being creative was a creature that could do these things. Now it's one that can't. Shouldn't there be creatures that can turn invisible and fly by default in 5e? Should such things always be left to individual DMs ready to take on the oh-the-humanity complexity from now on?

TBH, I think your argument is 50% undercut by the fact it can still fly.
 

Celebrim

Legend
In reverse order.

Not for you, perhaps. Again, that also is a shame.

I'm sorry, but I don't feel I was offering a personal opinion on this. If it is a shame, then I'm not the focus of that disappointment.

It's not a feature, period. It isn't merely not a feature for me. The ability to tinker with, change, and fix a published rule set isn't a feature because it's an inherent attribute of PnP RPGs. It's not a feature because you can't take it away. Even if you were to write into the rule books, "The GM can't change these rules.", it still wouldn't remove the ability of the GM to tinker with the game. Even very bad rule with poor balance, clunky mechanics, slower than needed resolution, odd or no edge case handling, and frequently unpredictable results still can be tinkered with to make them more suited to a GM's desires. It's not subjectively true that a GM's ability to tinker with the rules isn't a feature of a particular rule set - it is objectively true.

That's a shame (that may sound sarcastic, it's not). I don't honestly think I'd be playing RPGs if I lacked that trust, myself.

There is a distinct difference in not trusting a fellow player, and feeling that it is impossible for a human to produce an unbiased result.

For example, why do we use dice? Couldn't we just ask the players and GMs to select random numbers on their own with the need of dice? Why don't you trust players and GMs to choose fortunes on a random basis?

How is that you are able to play RPGs given that you self-evidently lack sufficient trust in your fellow players to let them pick random numbers on their own?

That's a shame. (In case it isn't clear, that sounds sarcastic because it is.)
 

Agamon

Adventurer
That's not 'off-stage stuff'. That's on stage stuff. The fact you've already got the distinction somewhat confused suggests to me I'm right about the reduced complexity being an adjudication problem that is going to lead to railroady behavior by the DM


"Off-stage stuff" concerns actions taken by the monster that do not directly affect the PCs and which the PCs could not directly witness and which does not imply necessarily that similar things should happen on stage. The PCs can only learn about off-stage stuff indirectly, by observation, or by having the event related to them by an NPC.

1) The monster summons minions to send after the party - On stage.
2) The monster teleports away after a confrontation. On stage.

vs

1) The PCs enter a room. It happens to have minions in it. - Off stage.
2) The PCs discover that the monster killed a NPC within a locked room. - Off stage.

My examples assumed these things happened off-stage as an explanation for "Why are these minions attacking us?" or "He was here a minute ago. Now where is he?" Non-direct situations. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that.

A DM that needs something to happen - a murder by an NPC - but which doesn't have a limited set of known tools to accomplish it, is less likely to create a followable series of events. Things happen because 'plot', and instead of thinking all this out ahead, the answer is generally either, "No.", or the "NPC gets away because 'reasons'."

The rest of your post assumes making things up on the fly and then not being consistent. I agree that is a bad idea. But monsters can be changed well before hand, during prep. Changing things on the fly to suit the DM's story is just bad form.
 

Ranes

Adventurer
TBH, I think your argument is 50% undercut by the fact it can still fly.

Aiee! Etc. I'd become muddled because it was me who had mistakenly said, upthread, the 3e version couldn't fly, before realising that it could. So thanks for pointing out my wobble. And if flight represented 50% of the abilities absent from the 5e preview that bone devils had in earlier editions, yes I would have to entirely agree with you.
 

Agamon

Adventurer
Please. First, it's the same game, just a different edition. But without getting bogged down in semantics, people buying into the game from earlier editions are being entirely sensible when they have certain expectations of the abilities of long-established (thirty-plus years) creatures. Yes, things change with editions and sometimes this or that expectation isn't met. The merits or otherwise of that is what we're discussing. But don't accuse those with unmet reasonable expectations of not being sensible.

I'm just saying that 5e has different parameters than earlier editions. The underlying assumptions are different. For example, one of the main ones is that combats go by more quickly than in 3e and 4e. It's almost pointless listing a whole bunch of abilities for a monster it'll likely not use.
 


Schmoe

Adventurer
The rest of your post assumes making things up on the fly and then not being consistent. I agree that is a bad idea. But monsters can be changed well before hand, during prep. Changing things on the fly to suit the DM's story is just bad form.

I like creatures with a large set of abilities because they suggest interesting ways for me to use the creatures. I can obviously add abilities to creatures to increase the options, but if I have to do that to make the creatures interesting, why even have a stat block in the first place? Just give me a physical description, tell me to make up my own stats, and I'll be just as well off.
 

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