Ovinomancer
No flips for you!
Why would you think I would apply a different metric? With regards to blackface, my requests were met -- harm was clearly shown, extent of harm was clearly shown, mechanism of harm was clearly shown, and method of repair was clearly identified.
Again, please do the same for 'racism in D&D'. Most modern version only, though, as anything in a previous edition that isn't in the current one has already been addressed and should already be to your satisfaction.
Huh, the logical fallacies in there are strong. I can think that racism is bad. I can also think that there may be racist things in D&D. (If you're taking notes, you should underline the word 'may' and make sure you know it's definition.) That doesn't mean that I must jump to the conclusion that racism in D&D exists.If you think that ethically "racism is bad" is a true statement, and you state that "race in D&D may be an issue" and "something worth addressing," then why do you seem so reluctant to do so or to explore that yourself? Why are you so reticent to reflect on the issue of racism in gaming? Are you afraid of what you might find should you actually apply an honest critical examination of the materials? I am genuinely curious as to why you and a few others seem so hellbent on resisting even examining the possibility that D&D may handle 'race' in a culturally-inappropriate (i.e. racist) manner.
As for being willing to explore it myself, how do you know I haven't. You're making the argument that it exists, you're making the argument that something must be done, it's YOUR responsibility to show the work for your claims, not mine to go discover it on my own.
You do not get to assign me homework to support your arguments.
Changing your word choice away from an undefinable, emotionally laden term that sums up was 'I don't like this' would be in your interest, not mine. Making an argument equivalent to stomping your feet in a tantrum until you get your way is generally not a good way to convince others to see things your way. (Also, 'cultural appropriation' is a ridiculous argument in and of itself. No culture is perfect, and all should be doing everything they can to take from other cultures to improve themselves. Saying this is wrong is saying that all cultures must remain stagnant. It's a failure of an argument, but it still amazes me how often it gets trotted out.)
And your second half is just going back to asserting things without showing work.
I'm gonna fisk this one sentence here, even though I generally dislike sentence level fisking.
It was the proposed solution that was draconian. It was all or nothing, everything must go fire sale, get rid of everything that has ever been shown to be near some source that was racist in some part (not necessarily that part). That's draconian. When you call for the cleansing fire to erase the heresy, you're engaging in draconian responses.
My priorities are firmly in place, and nowhere near your attempted slander, thank you. My priorities lie in seeing that a solid case of actual harm is being presented, alongside the minimumly harmful solution. You're assuming your positions and then declaring me to be a bad person because I don't agree, despite other posters in this thread saying that that was not the point. But I'm a big boy, with think internet skin, so I'm not overly bothered by being considered a poor example of a caring human by someone who's arguments consist of 'problematic' and begging the question.
Excellent. Now, please do that work for your argument re: races in D&D. You've already agreed by presenting this argument that such work is necessary, good, and results in changes. So go ahead and do it.
That isn't a harm. You'd have to show that non-whites are being actively harmed by failing to participate and/or that non-white are not participating mainly because of racist tropes in D&D as a group. That last bit is very important, because racism is not an individual sport -- it must be aimed at a group. Individuals feel the impact, but the aim must be at a group.
Also, anyone versed in statistics should know that sample characteristics may suggest causes, but do not, themselves, show causes. That the group is mostly white isn't sufficient. It's necessary, yes, but not sufficient (necessary for those definitions of racism that go white out, not those definitions of racism that aren't tied exclusively to whites).
I have lots of possible reasons, and I'll give you one:
Racism.
Hah, weren't expecting that, where you. But, before you go on, note I didn't say 'racism in D&D', I said 'racism'. Specifically, structural and systemic racism in US society (also the 'almost all white' bit is really only a 'thing' in the US -- elsewhere gaming hews pretty close to the racial makeup of the host countries). See, tabletop gaming requires idle time. The systemic racism in the US has historically affected the available idle time of minorities far more than the idle time of whites. So, a hobby that requires copious idle time to engage in will slant away from minorities.
Other examples: train collecting -- overwhelming white. Napoleonic wargaming -- overwhelmingly white. Model airplanes -- overwhelming white. Estes rockets -- overwhelmingly white. Here's a fun one -- puzzling -- overwhelming white.
No, I'm open to that. What I'm saying is that you need to show that it does, not hand wave and think that it does.
I'm not seeing actual complaints, even, much less the systemic collection of complaints or large, grassroots complaint movement that would indicate that there is a serious racial issue with D&D. Instead, it's 'but the source material was racist'. That fails unless you show that the material taken was the racist material AND that it retains the racism. Just having a source that was racist doesn't make the derivative racist -- that's the genetic fallacy and it's a fallacy for a reason.
No, that's you putting words in my mouth. Nothing I've said at all says that you can't or shouldn't complain or make your argument. What I've said is that you need to do the work to show that your argument has merit past that it feels correct to you. No facts are in evidence that actually show that material in D&D is racist.
To put it in your metaphor, you've hit the 'report button' and said 'I don't like this'. This does't mean that the reported post breaks the rules. Unfortunately, this metaphor breaks down at that point, because when you hit 'report post' there's someone who's the final arbiter of those rules who's job it is to look at and consider your report. In real life, there isn't, so you have to make the case that the rules are broken in your report, because there's no racism moderator in the forum of life that will do that work for you.
