How Do You Get Your Players To Stay On An Adventure Path?

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Actually, it does both. Certain events continue even if the players are not there. For example, I have a villain that is trying to establish a hold on the region. And depending on how much trouble the players cause "it", it may or may not be successful. And if they ignore it entirely, then it will continue its merry work, and they may find some powerful opposition in the future. I do not force them to engage their enemy, and in fact, they are free to ignore the villain entirely. But it does have consequences for the story.

But other aspects of the plot may come to the players, regardless of where they are in the world. I have an undead pirate captain who was accidentally allowed to be resurrected, due to a mistake by the players, and now he came to seek his vengeance. The players do not have to look for him, he'll come to where ever they are. I also have a bunch of cultists, who struck a powerful blow against the city where the players are currently at. It could have happened anywhere really, but this was one of those cases where something dramatic had to happen to pick up the plot again. I try to find a good balance between plot and freedom. Too much freedom, and it ends up feeling like there is no plot, and everything is just random. But too much plot, and it feels like the players are just watching a movie. I prefer something in between, where you have good storytelling, and a sandbox as well.

The campaign world is basically a confined sandbox. It has a plot line running through it, which is free to branch out in any direction, and it has some mini plots that happen where ever the players happen to be.

There's never just one plot. There are multiple plots, along with an overarching story. And depending on where the players go, I can pick up a different plot line. Eventually all these plot lines lead to one big conclusion, but since every plot line can be affected by the players, the outcome can change.

So this is not what I would call a railroad. The players do not have to do anything, and they don't have to go anywhere. They are free to explore the world as they want. The only thing set in stone, is the sort of ending that the story is heading towards. But that ending may take many shapes, depending on what allies the players form during their adventures (which may span a whole year of playing sessions). There are some large decisions that may have a great effect on the plot, and the ending is always in motion, changing with each unpredictable thing that the players do. Yes, there will be a big naval battle at the end, and I know what enemy they will be fighting.

But how many others will be dragged into this conflict? What will happen to the rest of the region? These are things that I have deliberately not written in stone. It's sort of like having a rough idea of the ending to a book, but writing the rest as you go.

Only if you write both the outcome, and their decisions for them. That is railroading. If you allow choice, and players can affect the plot, then that is not railroading. Having a plot is not the same as railroading. You can have a plot, and also not railroad.

I disagree. If they can't escape the overplot, they are being railroaded, even if it's a railroad with multiple tracks instead of one and they can ditch some of the tracks. Your method just makes the railroad easier to swallow.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
A problem with discussing sandboxes and railroading is that sandbox play is generally considered good, and railroading bad. This means that any "accusation" of railroading has to be repulsed, creating a generally defensive discussion.

To me, sandbox <-> railroad is a spectrum. My preferred playstyle is somewhere near the middle (at least what I consider the middle). At either end lies madness and a non-functional game. Sandboxes can be just as nonfunctional as railroaded games.

For a sandbox game to work well, you need proactive players. Proactive players will set goals for themselves, creating plots that the DM can run with. Reactive players have to be guided to things, so some level of railroading will happen, because a true sandbox game will fall apart.
 

N'raac

First Post
I disagree. If they can't escape the overplot, they are being railroaded, even if it's a railroad with multiple tracks instead of one and they can ditch some of the tracks. Your method just makes the railroad easier to swallow.

A concise and accurate statement of the issue (way more concise than my post!).

For a sandbox game to work well, you need proactive players. Proactive players will set goals for themselves, creating plots that the DM can run with. Reactive players have to be guided to things, so some level of railroading will happen, because a true sandbox game will fall apart.

Very true. Typically the Heroes are reactive - the Bad Guys do something, and the Heroes become aware of it and work to prevent it, stop it or rectify it.

A problem often noted with a "sandbox" is that the players flounder, not being sure of what they could do, much less what they want to do, because they don't have the knowledge of the sandbox to form proactive goals and assess how to implement them.

The biggest problem with this discussion, which someone above also noted, is that we often proceed on the basis that "Railroad always bad, Sandbox always good". I don't agree. I agree with the concept of balancing the two - balancing plot and freedom is the term Imaculata used above - to generate a game which is fun for the group. Reading a script is not a fun game, but neither is wandering about aimlessly with no clue what to do next. The ideal point between the two varies between gamers, and there are some gamers whose preferred points on the continuum are not compatible. Hence the many posts above about getting buy-in to ensure the players are being "railroaded" to the story, plot and game elements they would have chosen to pursue in a broader "sandbox".
 
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Bleys Icefalcon

First Post
The biggest issue I run into, when it comes to keeping the game on track - is distractions from out of game stuff. I have had to start enforcing a phone/tablet/laptop moritorium during the game. That and the endless debates about what they are doing right and what they are doing wrong when it comes the the Marvel Cinematic Universe...
 

Celebrim

Legend
A problem often noted with a "sandbox" is that the players flounder, not being sure of what they could do, much less what they want to do, because they don't have the knowledge of the sandbox to form proactive goals and assess how to implement them.

The biggest problem with this discussion, which someone above also noted, is that we often proceed on the basis that "Railroad always bad, Sandbox always good".

Yeah. We really need better words to describe what we are talking about.

Reading a script is not a fun game, but neither is wandering about aimlessly with no clue what to do next.

It's not merely a matter of lack of proactivity. Most people playing an RPG unconsciously expect that the game will develop some sort of story through play and that this story will in some way be like the stories generated by other literary media. But if you run a pure sandbox without scripting and without effectively chasing down the players and making things happen to them, the big problem is that you tend to produce a long series of disconnected events that don't collectively form a story. What I found, both as a player and a DM, that this works well only for inexperienced players for which the experience of an RPG is fairly new. When you are 12, you don't really care that there isn't a story, you are too engrossed in fighting goblins, looting dungeons, and so forth. All of the game is both mechanically and thematically fresh. After a few years of doing that hardcore 8 hours a week though, it sort of runs into the problem that you've already done all this before. You've fought the monsters. You've seen all manner of traps. You've got high level characters with great gear. Now what? All the proactivity in the world doesn't necessarily create a story, any more than ones own real life easily novelizes into a compelling narrative with rising and falling action, resolution and epiphany.

I have tried to run sandboxes before. And the problem you run into is player buy in when they look around and don't see a story to pursue and nothing with real lasting meaning seems to happen. Even if you've got these cool plots hidden in various parts of the sand, if the players don't engage with them then they might as well not exist. One of the problems I had was that I had all these secrets that were legitimately secret, but no means or reason why the PC's would uncover the secrets or having uncovered them recognize them as having meaning. Real sandboxes can just overwhelm players with detail. There aren't any red herrings because there is no plot! That's in practice the same as saying "Everything is a red herring." How are the players to know which of these grains of sand are special and important and more importantly interesting enough that they'll allow the players to participate in a heroic story like what they would read in a fantasy story?

Some tables and some systems try to get around this problem by moving tangentially to the linear/non-linear axis. In both the sandbox and the adventure path you have tons of 'myth'. That is to say, on the slice of possibilities we are discussing the notion that that there is a concrete setting preexisting the players is largely assumed. The idea is do away with the setting, which in theory allows you to produce stories with lots of play buy in, but without fixed goals or events because the setting itself isn't fixed and is generated in response to player proactivity. It sounds good in theory, but in practice it has a lot of huge traps. One of them is that when you do away with a concrete setting, you remove the one security that the players have that they characters actually have agency. Theoretically, if the players are being allowed to create the myth based on their metagame desires, then the players have agency. But if the GM is not being constrained by his prior agreed upon myth, the problem is the GM is not being constrained at all. The myth that a GM creates for himself and his commitment to stay true to that myth is the one real limit on GM power. How can you say you overturning the GM's 'will' for the game, if the GM is completely free to create any contingency that they want?

In fact, what 'no myth' games seem to do is get players to accept buying a ticket on a railroad, and then letting the GM railroad however he likes. They even openly promote railroading techniques as ways to improve the story, with the GM empowered to create whatever he wants at any moment to have the story move in the direction the GM at that moment thinks will be best. If the GM wants the bad guy to escape because it's good for the story - a classic sign of railroading - in these games that's what he's supposed to do. Now, I'm not saying that's necessarily wrong. Railroading techniques can be used to improve the story. But fundamentally, all the nar techniques in the world are little different than saying, "Find a GM that creates fun railroads." A GM that can't create a really fun railroad for you to buy into, also won't be able to sit in the director's chair of a nar game and make it fun for the players. Why? Because the tool set that both GM's are using will be identical. In both games, if the GM decides that the ground opening up and swallowing you makes for a better story, that's what happens and both GMs will justify it in the same way.

A few systems even note this potential trap and so try to come up with ways to route around it. The usual way they do this is have players be able to decide what is best for the story, so that they aren't just at the mercy of the GMs designs. But the ways to route around it have additional traps, the most obvious of which is that it's just no fun to be the person who both introduces the conflict or problem, and the person who resolves it. If you wanted to just tell a story to yourself, you'd write a novel. Stray too far into PC's being able to control the myth, and pretty soon there is no real exploration, no real secrets to discover, and no real surprises. Even worse, too much of the play described by those systems reminds me not of the experience of being in a fantasy story, but rather of the experience of sitting around a table collaboratively working on a movie script. Even though the end transcription of play might look like a good story, the way you arrived at that story and the experience of arriving at the story is very different.

To short version of this post is I don't think we've described the space of GMing well enough to outline the shape of 'good GMing practice' with confidence. This single axis of 'Railroad/Sandbox' is not only not well labeled, because it's not objectively true that a sandbox is better than a railroad, but it's only one dimension that describes a very complicated space of GMing technique. There are things out there that we don't describe as railroads, even though they rely heavily on techniques that in another context, we'd call railroading, because they also have these additional techniques we don't normally use in railroads - like giving player's metagame agency. But we don't have the language to talk about that with shared understanding. I can say to someone, "All no-myth games are railroads", and I know what I mean. But they don't know what I mean, and so hear something like, "All no-myth games are bad.", when what I mean is that projected on to a single axis no-myth games almost invariably use the same GMing techniques that railroads use. That isn't to say that they are indistinguishable, because there is at least one and probably many ways they can differ. But if you are measuring just one dimension of complex things with just one ruler, you end up treating herrings and laptops as the same thing because 'length'.
 

Celebrim

Legend
The biggest issue I run into, when it comes to keeping the game on track - is distractions from out of game stuff. I have had to start enforcing a phone/tablet/laptop moritorium during the game. That and the endless debates about what they are doing right and what they are doing wrong when it comes the the Marvel Cinematic Universe...

In my opinion, the big source of this problem is a gaming group that doesn't spend enough time together as friends not playing an RPG. What often happens is that one a week or every other week interaction is the one time that a group of friends have reserved to socialize with each other. Often as not, there will be members of the group for which this meeting is their primary socialization time.

The problem of "this time is our time to game, so lets pay attention to it" is a lot easier to deal with if the group goes out to see movies together, board games together, and generally hangs out together than it is if all that social pressure is uncorked at the same time you get together to play.

I admit as a GM being frustrated with the lack of focus on the game. But I usually understand why it takes 2 hours for the group to get settled down enough to play, and why its so easy for something to disrupt focus and prompt an OOC conversation.
 

The biggest problem with this discussion, which someone above also noted, is that we often proceed on the basis that "Railroad always bad, Sandbox always good". I don't agree. I agree with the concept of balancing the two - balancing plot and freedom is the term Imaculata used above - to generate a game which is fun for the group. Reading a script is not a fun game, but neither is wandering about aimlessly with no clue what to do next. The ideal point between the two varies between gamers, and there are some gamers whose preferred points on the continuum are not compatible. Hence the many posts above about getting buy-in to ensure the players are being "railroaded" to the story, plot and game elements they would have chosen to pursue in a broader "sandbox".

I agree entirely. I don't think that a 100% sandbox game is a good thing, but neither is a 100% scripted game. I think you need to have at least some plot, in order to have a story. But what matters, is how set in stone this story is. I prefer to allow my players to affect the plot as much as possible. And I want to give them the freedom to do what they want to do. I run a pirate campaign, and so my players want to sail the seas, explore new regions, raid ships, and build a pirate faction of their own. Currently they are even preparing to build their own base on a remote island. All this is perfectly fine with me. Their base will make for an excellent platform to further the plot.

When my players explore an island, I randomly roll for what they discover on their travels. But if there was no plot what so ever, then it would probably get dull pretty quickly. So I write a basic mini plot for each island, that is waiting for the players to uncover. I serve them a mix of story and random stuff. And I change the plot depending on what the players do.

For example, I had written a plot where one of the villains would attempt to steal a treasure map from the players. But considering the choices of the players, and their current location, it just didn't make sense for the villain to run with that plan. It relied too heavily on the villain knowing things he/she couldn't possibly know, and so I just let it go, and put the idea in the freezer for now. I may find a way to use it some other time.

Now not everyone is going to agree on what makes for the perfect D&D campaign style. I know plenty of players who like a good story, and don't mind if they are being pushed from A to B. But personally I don't ever want to be in a position as a DM, where I have to tell my players "you can't go there, that's not part of the campaign", or "you can't do that, because the plot can't continue otherwise". I think as a DM you should simply never put yourself in that position, where the choice of a player can so easily undermine your campaign. That is why all the characters in my campaign are expendable.

This is also why I often advise people that if they use an existing franchise as their role playing setting, to never introduce famous characters from that franchise. Don't introduce Darth Vader in your Star Wars campaign, and expect your players to not try and kill him. Don't introduce Gandalf or Frodo in your Middle-earth campaign, unless you are prepared to let them die. I know it's not always that black and white, but as a general rule, be prepared to have villains die. Nothing is more annoying than a villain that always gets away, because he has the DM's shield of plot invulnerability.
 

It's not merely a matter of lack of proactivity. Most people playing an RPG unconsciously expect that the game will develop some sort of story through play and that this story will in some way be like the stories generated by other literary media. But if you run a pure sandbox without scripting and without effectively chasing down the players and making things happen to them, the big problem is that you tend to produce a long series of disconnected events that don't collectively form a story.

I agree on this as well. Say you have the players wander through the jungle, and then they stumble upon a mystical temple with a bunch of bad guys in it. You have a bunch of puzzles, traps, obstacles and fights, along with the usual treasure. But you can only do that so often, till the players start wondering "why is it there?". "Is there any point to all this?".

Having a sandbox to explore is fun and all, but at some point I think most players hope to get some sense of connected events. When my players discovered an ancient cliff side city (a random encounter), I incorporated hints of the main plot in the dungeon. Ancient wall carvings revealed myths and legends, and told a story of a place that they had never heard of. A strange stone gate with eyes, in a stormy sea. And the dead being brought by ship before this gateway. It was a neat bit of flavor text, but the players knew right away that this wasn't just some random fluff text that I was throwing their way. And so they started investigating, and uncovered that the wall carvings referred to a legendary place at sea that is very difficult to find. They may choose to look for this place, or maybe they won't. Either way, I have stuff prepared for when that happens. I sprinkle bits of plot all over the place.

And sometimes you simply have to push the story forward. My players expect not just freedom, but also plot twists and cliff hangers, like one might expect in an episode of Game of Thrones. This means sometimes killing off a beloved character unexpectedly, to raise the stakes. Is that railroading? I think we call that storytelling.

When people talk about railroading, they often use the term as if it means 'any plot what so ever'. But as a DM you are not just a referee, but you are also a storyteller. Telling a story and having a plot, is not the same as railroading the players. A railroad suggests one direction, from A to B. But a plot in D&D does not have to be linear at all. The players can affect the outcome of the plot, or alter its course. That is not railroading. I think if you use the term 'railroading' to describe story, then you are using it incorrectly.
 
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Starfox

Hero
Some tables and some systems try to get around this problem by moving tangentially to the linear/non-linear axis.

Off on a tangent here, but is this what is called narrative games in The Forge's Narrative-Storytelling-Gamist theory? I must admit I never quite grasped the concept of narrative as they use it, but this seems pretty close.
 

cmad1977

Hero
Anyways... On the topic of the original post and not the silly "railroad/sandbox" discussion that always comes up and never goes anywhere because everyone is running a sandboxy railroad anyways....

Players often choose tactics that are not 'in the books' to accomplish a task at hand. This is where you come in as DM.
"Ok you've infiltrated the bandit camp..."
"Hey, can we poised n their food?"
"Well... You don't have any poison..."
"What about me? I'm a Druid... He's a ranger... Maybe we can find some toadstools or something that'll give the bandits the runs"
"... Ok... Sure! Give me a nature or survival roll... Jesus a twenty?? Well you found some mushrooms... "

Basically an except from an HoTDQ I'm running.
I like the philosophy of saying "yes, and" or "yes, but" to the ideas my heroes have. The "yes, but" is an important one in particular I think as it allows me to describe dangers the players may not be aware of(mechanical or otherwise)
 

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