UngeheuerLich
Legend
I am giving to you all. I am really interested in how it works out.
D&D 5E Test of High Level 5E: Design 4 or 5 lvl 13 PCs for 6 to 8 encounter adventuring day
Citation needed.
pming
Legend
Hiya!
Uhhh....no?
I'm using my own experience in designing games, adventures, monsters, etc and have come to the conclusion that if I set up X - Y = Z as my balance, then adding stuff to X, but not to Y, will result in Z being "unbalanced". (e.g., AC's are built with the assumption that PC's are going to be using the core rules...suddenly adding in a -5 to hit, for a +10 damage is going to mess that up a bit; then add in any number of other feats, then add in Multiclassing, and then add all the 'synergistic combos' from all of those options...and suddenly the AC vs th/dmg balance is almost guaranteed to be "off kilter", shall we say).
Hence, my request that if/when the OP's get to testing all this, that they let us know what they had to do to monsters/encounters in order to 'rebalance' everything.
^_^
Paul L. Ming
Uhhh....no?
I'm using my own experience in designing games, adventures, monsters, etc and have come to the conclusion that if I set up X - Y = Z as my balance, then adding stuff to X, but not to Y, will result in Z being "unbalanced". (e.g., AC's are built with the assumption that PC's are going to be using the core rules...suddenly adding in a -5 to hit, for a +10 damage is going to mess that up a bit; then add in any number of other feats, then add in Multiclassing, and then add all the 'synergistic combos' from all of those options...and suddenly the AC vs th/dmg balance is almost guaranteed to be "off kilter", shall we say).
Hence, my request that if/when the OP's get to testing all this, that they let us know what they had to do to monsters/encounters in order to 'rebalance' everything.
^_^
Paul L. Ming
Flamestrike
Legend
Ill PM you the maps when I get home from work tonight.
Ill PM responses to your responses re these encounters in a bit.
Flamestrike
Legend
Myrkyn replies.
'I can assure you my esteemed Gnomish friend, that His Majesty and I are well aware of 'who' you are and 'what' you have done. I initially even thought that your party had perhaps waylaid the other group on the way back from the mountain to claim the three weapons for yourselves, however my spies quickly confirmed for me that wasnt the case (he joking chuckles, then his face turns deadly serious again).'
As the head of magical security for the King, I tend to make a habit of keeping tabs on powerful adventuring bands that wander into the Kingdom such as your own. Divination magic, spy networks, that kind of thing. And yes, your past... how shall I say... 'exploits' have indeed reached my ears. I think we can both agree that your motives are your own, and you have your eyes set on a... larger prize.
I am not here to bicker about the past however. I am here with a mandate and an offer to wipe the slate clean, and to make you all very very rich men and women. Doors will open for you all, and past indescretions will be... forgotten. Again; I must reiterate - time is very much of the essence, so I will have to be brief.
As you are well aware, the Archmage Keraptis recently stole three weapons - artifacts really - from our 'impenetrable' royal vaults. As you are also aware, one of these weapons was the fabled sword Blackrazor.
(His gaze intensifies, and you can sense a pang of fear on his face) Tell me friend, what do you know of this weapon?
1) Yes, it can be assumed from relevant knowledge (arcana/ history) checks that you know where White Plume Mountain is. You know an Archmage named Keraptis lives there, that it is a hollowed out volcano, and a Dracolich lairs nearby.
2) You dont need the King. He's simply offering you payment, royal titles and the opening of doors to political power if you do this task.
3) You could find the mountain on your own if you want. Its a large volcano, and is not hard to find in its moutain range. Its around a weeks travel to the north. The last party that departed a few days ago made the journety on a flying carpet (their party Paladin rode a Pegasus).
4) From the tone of your Gnome Wizard above, no you dont think there are better - you probably think that you're the best there is around the kingdom. Whether thats objectively true or not, is a different question entirely.
For a character that likes to 'stay off the radar' and 'not commit crime', you just insulted the King (through his appointed representative and court wizard) which is technically a capital offence (i.e. crime). At the very least you are lucky not to earn the ire of some very powerful people. You get the sense that Myrkyn is desperate however.
The Kings own Archmage has just come to you for help. Its fair to say (or to infer from this fact) the King knows who you are, and is keeping tabs on you.
A bunch of 13th level characters are a force to be reckoned with. Its no different to if a warlord marched a small mercenary company across the border to camp. You can shape the fate of kingdoms at this level.
Its... going to be markedy different.
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Jubali looks at the wizard with an irritated gaze, "First, there is no slate to wipe clean. We are in your kingdom by choice. You are speaking to me in an impudent manner. If you continue to press this issue of wiping a slate you seem to be manufacturing, we will depart. We have plenty of other places we could be. So here are your choices. Bid us farewell, attempt to kill us, or speak to us as though you are speaking to another sovereign on behalf of your king, not as thought you are speaking to subjects or criminals. Do we understand each other?" She folds her hands and meets his gaze coldly.
OOC: I don't plan to play subject to a king or assume these characters are implicated in any kind of crime. They're adventurers. They raid dungeons, temples, and other places far away from civilization for money and magic. That is likely how they reached lvl 13. They stay way from politics. They don't take crap off kings or nobles. They locate some off the radar hidden place unclaimed and unexplored that might have hidden treasure and explore it for personal gain. If this guy wants to hire us, he needs to do better. We need to know the reputation of this king. Does he pay his debts? Is he trustworthy? Is he known to backstab people that do him a service to avoid payment? As far as operating on a timetable, they don't have an interest in that given there are easier targets with more profit.
You want an example of high level play. Part of that example is dictating terms. High level characters are powerful enough that they can pick and choose opportunities according to their whim and timetables are fairly meaningless to them. I can plane shift at this level. Even if you tell me the world is going to be destroyed, I can simply leave to another world. That's how powerful high level characters are. That is why talk of time constraints by a DM seem to not take into account player capability at high level. Unless you manufacture a lot of artificial constraints, you need to understand that high level characters are beholden to no one but themselves.
I've played high level games a lot. I'm used to this type of play. Unless the players are on an adventure they've been on a long time, I generally let them dictate where they want to go at this level and what they want to do because they're just too powerful for me to force them anywhere without being a real jerk DM.
Suffice it to say, for a realistic example of high level play I'm not going to let you dictate terms to me. High level play means I'm at a level where I pick where I'm going and when. If you want to do encounters, we can do that. I'll show you high level characters in operation for general combat and see what you've done to effectively counter them. As far as roleplaying goes, I'm never going to let you press me into action at a pace other than what I dictate. It's not necessary at 13th level for high level adventurers whose power is such that holding onto it by staying alive is paramount.
If this is not acceptable, then we can stop here.
K.
Don't need it. Level 13 plus characters can claim land by force. Every level past makes it easier. Our parties generally take one of the lairs we've cleared adventuring and keep it as a base of operations. We usually secure it against scrying. We like highly secure lairs in places where armies can't march. We tend to look for neutral territories outside of highly trafficked territory.
I'm going to assume she's bored and visiting a kingdom that seemed interesting to wander into.
Are you going to allow us such modes of transportation? What kind of cash do we have at 13th level? Hopefully enough for spell components and a few extra spells.
The gnome wizard did not speak. It was Jubali, the female bard. The gnome chuckled at the end, since he is accustomed to her impertinence.
These characters would likely not enter a kingdom where there was a king that thought himself so important that he would murder people that insulted him. That sounds like an extremely lawful and uptight kingdom and a place this group would avoid, save perhaps the paladin? Because as I told you, we will be leaving and having nothing to do with arrogant kings that attempt to muscle us. We've been around long enough that muscling us is about worthless by 13th level.
This is the problem with starting at this point. By this level a 13th level party would know where they are going next. At that level you're dictating, not being dictated to. Who is this king? I need some background on the world. Is this Forgotten Realms or something similar?
Yep. Starting at 13th level is a bit out of bounds for me. By this level we've usually acquired a residence and set up our own fiefdom. We're not usually still answering kingly summons.
Its... going to be markedy different.
Should be interesting.
As a side note, the above is a mild form of roleplaying than what I'm accustomed to as a DM. When we played Hoard of the Dragon Queen, we never made it the Dragon Council because the party fighter tried to challenge the dragon council ambassador sent to us to a fight to the death. Recently in Out of the Abyss when a certain NPC to address the same player, he told him he would cut his tongue out. When we arrived in Gracklstugh, the half-orc fighter/rogue refused to bribe someone to enter and refused to answer any questions, so he camped outside the city and snuck in later. This same group played Kingmaker, built up their kingdom, then took over the original kingdom that sent them to claim it and started a war to take more land from the original place they came from. I had to do a lot of work on the fly as a DM as circumstances change. I always assume unless I really try to muscle them, they won't much listen and the adventure will end early or go in a different direction. One time I even played a gnome monk in charge of this party that took over the Underworld of a couple of cities. He didn't actually run them or take much cash, but when he showed up they did what he said because no one could much fight him. He was a monk-cleric. He wore gold chains and dressed in luxurious robes walking around like the man. Unfortunately, my DM got mad and sent some feinting demons with off the charts deception to kill him. It was a hit job because he got tired of running those characters, the bastard.
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Flamestrike
Legend
'You may have other places to be, but (he again furrows his brow) you only have about 4 hours and 55 minutes left to get there, before there wont be anywhere to be. (His emphasis on the last six words is deliberate)
He leans forward. His eyes meeting your stare.
'I'm not sure you understand the gravity of the current situation. And I certainly dont have time to waste in protracted negotiations with you or your party.'
'Tell me then - what is it that you want as payment? If it is within my power I will grant it. Once the task is done of course. There were other options available for this task, but I argued for your party to be selected for this task personally to the King.'
'Dont make me regret my decision.'
The King has a reputation as a fair and reasonable man. The Wizard to whom you speak declined an offer to head the College Arcanum (an offer generally given to powerful Mages) and instead now works for the King as the head of Central Royal Intellegence and as his chief Wizard.
Then dictate terms. See what happens.
So, you flat out refuse to engage with any hooks placed by the DM, only ever play amoral characters to avoid the introduction of any kind of moral or ethical drama in your games, and refuse to play with a DM who deviates from the rules or uses optional rules in his game?
Look, I dont want to get into a judgement of your version of 'collaborative play' or really get into why you have to be so combatative but thats neither here nor there.
A NPC of some importance has just offered your PC (and 4 other PCs) vast wealth (100,000 GP), royal titles and so forth to do a quest. He's hinted (strongly) that the world is about to blow up in about 5 hours time killing eveything. Are you telling me that of the five characters sitting in that pub, none of them buy this hook?
None of these five players have any intrest in noble titles, the Kings favor, vast wealth or not blowing up in 5 hours time?
Instead you would rather just insult this bloke, and potentialy make very powerful enemies?
The Archmage standing in front of you would love to see you try.
Assume Forgotten realms levels of power. If Manshoon, Tzass Thaam, Fzoul Chembryll and co cant do it, a bunch of 13th level CN PCs wont either.
No, you dont have a Pegasus and a Flying carpet. You have unlimited (within reason) standard gear from the PHB, spell components within reason, and a few magic items (to be determined)
He doesnt or you'd already be dead.
In case you havent figured it out yet, he's trying to hire you, not kill you.
Why? How on earth is this relevant to the adventure for the purpose of the thread?
Man, high-level (fictional*) adventurers certainly need a lot of persuading to TEST a one-shot scenario that has nothing to do with an ongoing campaign!
Flamestrike, what about this new hook "the High God has selected you for a Test of Immortality! If you can do this and that in 5 hours, you'll all become gods!"
Certainly they will have less reserves...
*mh... aren't all PCs fictional, actually? aw well...
Flamestrike, what about this new hook "the High God has selected you for a Test of Immortality! If you can do this and that in 5 hours, you'll all become gods!"
Certainly they will have less reserves...
*mh... aren't all PCs fictional, actually? aw well...
Flamestrike
Legend
My thoughts exactly.
I've had the NPC basically state he'll give the PCs whatever they bloody well want to engage in the quest. I went with a cliche a bit (PCs in tavern, approached by NPC etc) but in the context of the thread, I thought it funny and appropriate.
Now Im being asked to sketch out the geo-politics of the entire game world, and being presented with arguments why 'I always play characters that are morally nebulous grey men so I dont have to engage in any plot hooks placed before me by the DM'
If these five fictional people genuinely cared about wealth, titles and power and were in the least bit concerned about the world blowing up (and you would struggle to find 5 people in the same room that didnt) then you would expect a nibble.
I mean - none of them have anything in this world that they care about and dont want to see destroyed? No family, no friends, no churches or other orginisations. They have nothing that becoming the equvalent of millionares would help? Gaining the favor of the King (and a powerful Archmage) also isnt enough apparently.
Apparently this Wizard has approached a bunch of abrasve anarchic nihlists, with no need for money, power, influential friends, land and titles who dont even care if the world blows up and millions die because (to quote the player) 'At 13th level, there are always more worlds to go to.'
I dont want to sound harsh, but this is rapidly deteriorating from a fun exersize to a demonstration of it what it means to be an abrasive, obstructionist and intentionally combatative player.
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