New DM Quest Rewards available on DM's Guild

Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
I do have to disagree with a previous poster about objecting to the system. Many DM's don't often get a chance to play. When we do, it's nice to have the option to do something other than a level 1 character - especially if there is an interesting higher level adventure.

As you note just below, you already have that option with the existing DM awards. The new DM Quests are just icing on an already hearty cake.

I added up what I've earned DMing as a lark recently and prior to the new rewards, I had earned 20K xp 500+ downtime days, and around 10K gold between summer of 2014 to February 2016 DMing virtually every week. That was good enough to let me start a tier 2 character with no magic equipment other than the current season DM cert

That's pretty good. Why would you need to start with a magic item, given that 5E doesn't presume that any character will ever get a magic item? Again, it just sounds to me like people are asking for a license to be munchkins.

Now, I can realistically work out having a level 11 or 12 character for a tier 3 adventure (there are 2 DDALs plus the latter sections of RoT, OoA, PoA, and Epics) (plus Author Only adventures) that can fit into the characters my friends are playing within 3-4 months. It's a smart idea.

Wait, why would you need to create an entirely new Tier 3 character to play with your friends? Couldn't you just, y'know, convince someone to take the DM role from time to time (not so coincidentally earning even more DM Quest XP), and level up your existing character that way?

Basically what we're doing is creating a two-pronged system for playing AL material -- the traditional way and the munchkin way, the latter of which lets you begin with exactly the classes and magic items you want to break your table. It's a horrible idea, just when it seemed as though the campaign staff had a handle on how to keep min-maxers from overwhelming the campaign.

it is unlikely more than a couple dozen DMs nationwide will hit that mark (I likely won't be one of them).

I think you underestimate how well-structured the campaign already is: Suits of the Mists was just released this week, so my group will be starting it next week. By the time we finish it (we run a bi-weekly game), DDAL 4-2 through 4-5 will be released, which gives us enough material** to run through May with the release of DDAL 4-6 through 4-8 (even if we level out of tier 1 and can't actually play 4-6, we can move along to 4-7 and still have enough content to keep us busy until the next set of modules drop on June 1), and we can schedule one 'special session' over the Fourth of July weekend to keep up with the module release schedule so that we can finish DDAL 4-14 on the last week of July, just in time to be ready for the new season.

** - Some of this is an accident of the calendar -- since April has five Fridays, we'll actually get in three sessions, and since 4-2 and 4-3 are two-hour mods, we'll likely finish them both in one session.

Players who finish the season will be level 10 and likely have at least two magic items, given the number of mods being run. A DM who runs all those mods will finish with 35,000XP, two scrolls or potions, and a rare magic item just from the DM Quests, plus over 10,000 XP from actually running the modules. So you've got basically a level 10 character as well! Except that, instead of having to have played your character, running the risk of spending your gold getting raised or otherwise finding out your character has weak spots you need to shore up, your guy can spring fully formed from your forehead, ready to abuse tier 2 tables (and very soon, tier 3 tables!) at your leisure!

I might see the argument in favor of having DM characters stay equivalent to PCs if there are flavorful story awards in Season 4 that allow players to develop their PCs in interesting ways and thus let those characters have wrinkles DM characters don't have. As it stands, though, characters built with DM XP are strictly superior to characters built through normal play; the drawback used to be that a DM character had to play (and thus expose herself to the same possible setbacks a PC has to deal with) to 'keep up' with other PCs. Absent that restriction, I think you'll find all the 'best' characters are DM characters now. And I don't think that's good for the game.

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Pauper
 

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Anthraxus

Explorer
Players who finish the season will be level 10 and likely have at least two magic items, given the number of mods being run. A DM who runs all those mods will finish with 35,000XP, two scrolls or potions, and a rare magic item just from the DM Quests, plus over 10,000 XP from actually running the modules. So you've got basically a level 10 character as well! Except that, instead of having to have played your character, running the risk of spending your gold getting raised or otherwise finding out your character has weak spots you need to shore up, your guy can spring fully formed from your forehead, ready to abuse tier 2 tables (and very soon, tier 3 tables!) at your leisure!

I might see the argument in favor of having DM characters stay equivalent to PCs if there are flavorful story awards in Season 4 that allow players to develop their PCs in interesting ways and thus let those characters have wrinkles DM characters don't have. As it stands, though, characters built with DM XP are strictly superior to characters built through normal play; the drawback used to be that a DM character had to play (and thus expose herself to the same possible setbacks a PC has to deal with) to 'keep up' with other PCs. Absent that restriction, I think you'll find all the 'best' characters are DM characters now. And I don't think that's good for the game.

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Pauper

35-45K XP for a DM character seems like a high estimate, considering a 10th level [player] character needs 64k to get to 10th level, and DM rewards are supposed to give around 25% XP for DM reward per mod?(As far as I know)

Even with the DM Quests rewards, the [DM] character might be around 8th level, with one permanent magic item(even if it's rare) doesn't really seem strictly better to me..? I don't see someone DM'ing a whole season for powergaming purposes, either. And if so, thanks for DM'ing! :)
 

felwred

First Post
As you note just below, you already have that option with the existing DM awards. The new DM Quests are just icing on an already hearty cake.



That's pretty good. Why would you need to start with a magic item, given that 5E doesn't presume that any character will ever get a magic item? Again, it just sounds to me like people are asking for a license to be munchkins.

Pauper - your logic is flawed. The beta version of the system was meant to work with no magic items. There isn't a single hardcover that makes that assumption. HoDQ had massive flaws because it was released before the MM in presenting monsters with resistance to non-magical weapons in a module where it was unlikely the players could run into one unless there was a generous DM (1 was an optional encounter, the second is hidden in a way that is doesn't make logical sense to look). OOA would be outright impossible without magic items and CoS is a TPK 95% of the time against Straud without magic items. The system can be modified to not need magic items but that isn't where it is out of the box (as acknowledged by Crawford).

Wait, why would you need to create an entirely new Tier 3 character to play with your friends? Couldn't you just, y'know, convince someone to take the DM role from time to time (not so coincidentally earning even more DM Quest XP), and level up your existing character that way?

"From time to time" is the problem here. To build a level 8 or 9 character organically, it takes many months. Most people game bi-weekly or weekly. In a 30 week season, that leaves 4-6 weeks to build one organically if you game weekly or not at all for bi-weekly. I do have characters from prior seasons but seasons like this one present unique opportunities based on the setting.


Basically what we're doing is creating a two-pronged system for playing AL material -- the traditional way and the munchkin way, the latter of which lets you begin with exactly the classes and magic items you want to break your table. It's a horrible idea, just when it seemed as though the campaign staff had a handle on how to keep min-maxers from overwhelming the campaign.

DM generated characters are nowhere as powerful as organic characters. Tier 2 characters are wandering around with very rare items, legendary items, divine blessings, etc. CoS has an opportunity for characters to spend time with Mordenkainen and access every spell known in the PHB. A DM generated tier 2 character jumping into a Con at level 8 or 9 will have 2 or 3 possible magic items. One is from the cert - and is certainly not game breaking. The other 2 are, at best, rare. They can be somewhat tailored to a character but characters with 5 items including legendary and very rare are out there. Characters with 3 including very rare and legendary are pretty common. The DM character can be in the same adventures but wouldn't hog the spotlight. Picture a wizard - you would only have the starting and per level spells - none discovered. You can't just buy them - they have to be encountered. A fighter with 3 items would likely be a +2 weapon (rare), +1 armor (uncommon), and a figurine. Compare that to the paladin with a sunblade, +2 shield, +2 dwarven plate, and the amulet from CoS - a pretty realistic scenario for a 4-5 person party running CoS. That's 1 legendary item, 2 very rare, and a rare. The same is true from OoA. If they just ran DDAL modules - you end up with extremely customized characters because they trade certs or just know which modules to play.

I think you underestimate how well-structured the campaign already is: Suits of the Mists was just released this week, so my group will be starting it next week. By the time we finish it (we run a bi-weekly game), DDAL 4-2 through 4-5 will be released, which gives us enough material** to run through May with the release of DDAL 4-6 through 4-8 (even if we level out of tier 1 and can't actually play 4-6, we can move along to 4-7 and still have enough content to keep us busy until the next set of modules drop on June 1), and we can schedule one 'special session' over the Fourth of July weekend to keep up with the module release schedule so that we can finish DDAL 4-14 on the last week of July, just in time to be ready for the new season.

** - Some of this is an accident of the calendar -- since April has five Fridays, we'll actually get in three sessions, and since 4-2 and 4-3 are two-hour mods, we'll likely finish them both in one session.

The final DDAL modules aren't released until July 1 and are 3 modules (2 - 2 hour and 1 4 hour). The season ends the beginning of August with the Season 5 launch happening at GenCon the first week of August. The means for a DM to qualify, they have to be on schedule on all the modules, not take time to run the hardback, and run the modules in the final 4 weeks. You pretty much have to DM outside of a weekly schedule to make it. If you DM at a con, it would help since you would be able to get the modules done early but the odds of you being in the area to participate are pretty slim (unless you fly out there). We'll see at GenCon this year as to how many DM's did it. I am guessing maybe 20-30 people nationwide. The big problem is a lot of store are running the hardback in store. That will take you a minimum of 3 months, probably more. Home games have the same scenario - many would rather run more of the hardbacks than the modules as it lets a more cohesive storyline be run (seriously - would you rather deal with NPCs build out of 2 and 4 hour modules or face off against Strahd and Baba Yaga?)

Players who finish the season will be level 10 and likely have at least two magic items, given the number of mods being run. A DM who runs all those mods will finish with 35,000XP, two scrolls or potions, and a rare magic item just from the DM Quests, plus over 10,000 XP from actually running the modules. So you've got basically a level 10 character as well! Except that, instead of having to have played your character, running the risk of spending your gold getting raised or otherwise finding out your character has weak spots you need to shore up, your guy can spring fully formed from your forehead, ready to abuse tier 2 tables (and very soon, tier 3 tables!) at your leisure!

As I said before, a DM generated character is average but not amazing for Tier 2 tables of characters at the same level. As for Tier 3 - no chance at all, even a little bit, that a level 11 or 12 DM generated character could survive with most of the Tier 3 tables I've run and participated in conventions. I ran through assault on mydramria with a group of 15th level characters and it was a TPK with every member of that party having legendary items and crazy builds. The Tier 3 adventures and epics are amazingly hard and assume level 13ish characters with really impressive magic.

I might see the argument in favor of having DM characters stay equivalent to PCs if there are flavorful story awards in Season 4 that allow players to develop their PCs in interesting ways and thus let those characters have wrinkles DM characters don't have. As it stands, though, characters built with DM XP are strictly superior to characters built through normal play; the drawback used to be that a DM character had to play (and thus expose herself to the same possible setbacks a PC has to deal with) to 'keep up' with other PCs. Absent that restriction, I think you'll find all the 'best' characters are DM characters now. And I don't think that's good for the game.

Setbacks and death in AL are pretty minor. A friend of mine described most AL as D&D on "Easy Mode" - if your DMs aren't really strong, it absolutely is easy mode. Levels 1-4 raise dead is free. Levels 5-10 it costs 1,250 gp. By the time you are level 8 or 9 - unless you are a wizard, you have nothing left to spend gold on. The Tier 3 table I described earlier had opportunities to spend gold to invest in armies to help with the module and every character maxxed the contributions and still had 5k-10k gold left. Very few other long term set-backs are even possible in AL. CoS is the first module with side-effects possible that are lasting (something I really am happy to see).

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Pauper

Overall the system is good - a definite improvement. I do question letting DMs insert non-consumable magic items. It's not from a crazy powerful list so it won't be game breaking but I can see doing without it. The extra XP for players for experienced DM's is a great idea. That's something I really like a lot. Of course, it's annoying to DM the same module a zillion times but you end up doing it. For store games, I'm not sure how many times I've run LMoP and HoDQ and can fix problems with them on the fly without a problem. I haven't run individual DDAL modules that many times more than once but a handful make sense. It takes a tough breed to run the -1 modules that many times. It's usually brand new players - you have to have a love of teaching the game. I have nothing but respect for people who do that over and over (well, maybe a bit of fear as to what would drive them :) ).

The three recommendations I'd make are:
1. Put a system in place to require taking the DCIs of all the players and better document what you've done to avoid cheating.
2. Give titles such as "Master DM" (yes - the older forum members will remember that from RPGA days) - it lets players know who to prioritize playing with in Cons. There's a limited system like that now with Baldman but work better if expanded out into the mass DM audience.
3. Let DMs who run games (especially in stores since that drives new people taking up the game) have access to unusual classes or races, etc. The certs that used to be printed for Aasimar, etc are the type of thing I am speaking about. They aren't game breaking but let you play something a bit different.

Overall AL - good work on the improvement!

Fred
 

Steve_MND

First Post
That's pretty good. Why would you need to start with a magic item, given that 5E doesn't presume that any character will ever get a magic item? Again, it just sounds to me like people are asking for a license to be munchkins.

While 5E might not presume that any character will ever get a magic item, I'm not entirely convinced AL doesn't make that assumption, especially at higher tiers. Every OP campaign of this type begins to slowly creep up on the power scale over time, and AL has been no exception (altho with the design of 5E, it's less pronounced that some other campaigns I've seen).

Wait, why would you need to create an entirely new Tier 3 character to play with your friends? Couldn't you just, y'know, convince someone to take the DM role from time to time (not so coincidentally earning even more DM Quest XP), and level up your existing character that way?

Oh, Pauper, that's adorable that you think everyone has a stable of people willing to DM in their area. :)
 

Anthraxus

Explorer
Oh, Pauper, that's adorable that you think everyone has a stable of people willing to DM in their area. :)

Yeah, I have a *great* group of players that come out to my gamedays. Great bunch of people. Still, I have a hard time getting volunteers to DM. :p We'll see how the DM Quest affects this- I am personally interested in seeing if it helps.
 

Ainulindalion

First Post
My area has about 10 game stores within an hour's drive of my house. But for the most part, they don't run Expeditions (or the modules formerly known as) but about once a month. Because despite the fact that I personally email about 200 people every week with updates, there are only about the same 10-15 DMs for all the locations.

So yeah, it's great if you can run the games every week, and are so sure so many people will finish up the various completionist quests for the season... I figure the only ones who do in my area will be the ones that DM at this summer's major conventions - the ones who can afford to actually travel to play D&D.

And maybe me, who is unemployed with a lot of free time.
 

Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
35-45K XP for a DM character seems like a high estimate, considering a 10th level [player] character needs 64k to get to 10th level, and DM rewards are supposed to give around 25% XP for DM reward per mod?(As far as I know)

35k is straight off the DM Quest Rewards card -- 5k for finishing the Tier 1 Season 4 adventures ("Local Hero"), 10k for finishing the Tier 2 Season 4 adventures ("Hero of the Land"), and 20k for doing both ("Agent of the Tarokka"). The rest is a guesstimate based on the chart in the ALDMG; your total will come out differently depending on how you figure the 'target level' works out for each module, but I come up with anywhere from 10k-12k, depending.

You'll also automatically complete the "Dedicated DM" quest, which grants you a second magic item, and you might well be able to rack up additional XP from other quests.

I can pretty easily take those awards and make it to level 11:

- Apply DM awards from running modules until I reach 2700XP, 1350gp, and 20+ downtime.
- Catch Up to level 5 by spending 20 downtime and lifestyle gold.
- Apply 35k of DM Quest XP

This puts my character at 41,500XP, which means I only need another 6500 XP and 100 downtime days to hit level 10, at which point I can Catch Up again to hit level 11. As noted, 10k total DM XP for running mods and 120 downtime days is likely the lowest possible award for running DDAL 4-2 through 4-14 (11 4-hour mods, plus 2 2-hour mods). Once I hit level 11, I turn in the Dedicated DM award and collect a Very Rare item to go with my existing Rare item.

Voila! Instant munchkin character!

--
Pauper
 

Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
Oh, Pauper, that's adorable that you think everyone has a stable of people willing to DM in their area. :)

I suspect, given that there's an explicit DM Quest for it, we'll see a lot more DMs asking their friends to run games this season. ;)

And given that there's only one generally-available module for Tier 3 even released, and that the admins have explicitly identified power-creep as an issue with past Organized Play campaigns, I'm not convinced we'll see a lot of that going forward. Your mileage may vary, of course.

--
Pauper
 

Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
So yeah, it's great if you can run the games every week, and are so sure so many people will finish up the various completionist quests for the season... I figure the only ones who do in my area will be the ones that DM at this summer's major conventions - the ones who can afford to actually travel to play D&D.

Again, I think you're overestimating the difficulty. If my math is right (above), I can complete the entire DDAL series before July 31 by running one session every other week at my apartment, plus one 'special session' over the Fourth of July weekend.

If I were *really* motivated, I could interleave sessions of Curse of Strahd during the weeks when I'm not running DDAL mods and end up with *two* instant munchkin characters!

The DM Quests are a good concept, and it's nice to see that they've been deliberately engineered, but I think the engineering makes the wrong assumptions -- if DM characters are going to get access to all the benefits that PCs have, they should also be exposed to all the drawbacks that PCs are exposed to, because without those drawbacks, DM characters will by default always be superior to PCs of the same level.

Edit: I'm not saying the DM Quests are broken by design, but I am saying that we should keep a close eye on the characters that come out of the DM Quest system, because if my suspicions prove correct, we've just opened up a huge opportunity for power-gamers to take over the campaign, just as they did in Living Forgotten Realms.

--
Pauper
 
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kalani

First Post
35k is straight off the DM Quest Rewards card -- 5k for finishing the Tier 1 Season 4 adventures ("Local Hero"), 10k for finishing the Tier 2 Season 4 adventures ("Hero of the Land"), and 20k for doing both ("Agent of the Tarokka"). The rest is a guesstimate based on the chart in the ALDMG; your total will come out differently depending on how you figure the 'target level' works out for each module, but I come up with anywhere from 10k-12k, depending.
Assuming none of the sessions goes over/under time - gaining the 35K would require 43hrs of DMing. That is a hefty investment. Meanwhile if the players were simultaneously at the table for all those sessions, they should complete 4-14 with an 8th level character. With 5 PCs on average, I would expect each of those PCs to have at least 2 magic items each.

The DM also would have earned 2 magic items during this period (Dedicated DM)- so the effort/reward seems comparable to what players get for the same time period. The DM however, would have far less renown on their character (~2 Renown IIRC; compared to 8 for the PCs), and almost no downtime. Finally, the PCs will also gain story awards and GP for their characters which the DM will not have.

I see it as comparable overall. Why people seem to think DMs should put in 5X the work and get nothing (or very little) for their effort is beyond me. Everyone is there to enjoy themselves and everyone is there to help create a shared story (both the players and DM included). If players earn rewards for their participation (in terms of XP/treasure/items/DT/Renown), why should the DM miss out on an equivalent reward - esp. in light of the increased effort, prep time, etc?

My opinion only.
 

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