Harassment in gaming

Fildrigar

Explorer
Actually the claim she does have to substantiate is that Wyrd Miniatures staff members have been threatening her. I've never heard of them nor the game Malifaux, but that's a serious accusation. She should be able to prove that easily so I hope justice is swiftly achieved.

Someone has already posted a link to the newspaper article. ( Wyrd is a miniatures game. ) Here is some stuff from the Wyrd Miniatures forum. ( Ferossa is the username of the person who ( I'm assuming ) wrote the Tumblr. ) This is an encapsulated version of the thread, because it's a long thread. It is important to note that this thread is one that has been specifically designated for off topic subjects that usually end up derailing other threads.

Ferossa starts with a post that is mildly critical of Wyrd's representation of Women. ( And an incredible insight into one of the more problematic characters in Malifaux, that made me say "WOW." ) She also briefly outlines some of the harassment she's seen over the years. ( Most of which shows up in her Tumblr post. ) The Wyrd dude escalates her mild criticism, conflating it with an attack on the company. ( Including the standards "we have Women who work here, too" and "but I have gay friends", etc. ) A bunch of the other posters take Nathan's attack on her as license to escalate. Right at the end of the thread, she posts; "To whomever decided to respond by hunting down my personal e-mail and mailing me a bunch of illegal porn, I reported you to the authorities and I hope they SWAT you. I'm now 3/3 wargame communities where I have experienced direct, targeted harassment aimed at driving women out of the hobby. Are we going to accept that there's a problem?"

Here is a link to the thread in question:
http://themostexcellentandawesomefo...x-andor-have-debate-about-in-malifaux/?page=1

The Tumblr post that begins this thread has been popping up all over the place. Since it did, I have seen dozens of my friends and acquaintances who are women relate some of their experiences being harassed in Gamer Spaces. And I've seen hundreds of men posting that it's not a problem, that she's lying, that we should ignore it. I'm done ignoring it.
 

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Celebrim

Legend
This is a problem overall, I wouldn't just point the finger at the gaming community, but I think it is so extreme (and surprising), because gamers tend to be (but not all mind you) social outcasts, nerds, geeks, bookworms, etc.

I think there is some truth to the claim that victims of abuse often turn into abusers themselves. I'm not excusing it. Indeed, no group ought to be so condemned for practicing it, since they ought to know what it is like themselves. But human nature isn't rational. We feel instead of think, and when we find belonging and membership, that's especially and doubly true.

So, maybe there are some geeks out there that are taking out there frustration on the popular girls that picked on them in high school. I don't know. It seems possible.

But I don't believe that there is an especially large intersection between gamers and sexism, or between gamers and abuse, above and beyond our slice of the world. It would however be nice to clean up our little portion of the world, whether or not we have an especial problem.

BRIAN
Then I assume Allison and I are
better people than you guys, huh?
Us weirdos...
(to Allison)
Do you, would you do that to me?

ALLISON
I don't have any friends...

BRIAN
Well if you did?

ALLISON
No...I don't think the kind of
friends I'd have would mind...

BRIAN
I just wanna tell, each of you,
that I wouldn't do that...I wouldn't
and I will not! 'Cause I think that's
real :):):):):):)...​
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
You said you were from LA? I had some players driving up from N'awlins for open gaming night at Little Wars in Baton Rouge? Any chance you were one of them? If you were, I apologize for killing your character off brutally and unfairly. In my defense, it had nothing to do with your skin color. I did that to everyone. I distinctly remember that the guy who died 5 minutes into one game from a Symbol of Fear (no save) that panicked his character into a rolling boulder trap was white.
Nah, I'm from NOLA, but have never had the pleasure of gaming in my home state. I got into the hobby in Colorado, and hpave kept up with it through a stop in Kansas and my "settlement" in Texas.
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
That probably made you feel uncomfortable. We can talk about those specific issues, but is there really a point in talking about them until we get passed this idea we live in such different worlds that we can't see anything from the other's point of view? Or we can sit here and debate whose victimization gives us the most authority to tell everyone that disagrees with us to shut up because they just can't possibly understand.

I didn't read her response to you as saying that we are so radically different that we are incapable of understanding each other. However, I feel as if I should emphasize that simply knowing the rules we are raised with and understanding the reasons for them is not enough to adequately walk in a woman's shoes, because there are very strange confluences of feelings that go along with being in situations where the different rules apply.

Consider the situation of a woman getting a flat tire at night, and then a strange man offers to help her. For the sake of this example, let's place me as the woman in the example. I genuinely want to believe in the goodness and charity of humanity. When that man offers to help me, there is a sense of relief, of having part of a burdensome situation lifted from my shoulders. However, there are also many competing feelings.

I realize that being alone at night when a stranger happens upon you is a compromising position. He is offering to help, but is that all he really wants? I could say "no thank you. I can handle it." I am certainly capable of changing a tire on my own. But, if he was genuinely offering to help, then not only have I inconvenienced myself, but I also may have hurt his feelings when he only wanted to help (and it really sucks to make a decent person feel bad because you just don't know them well enough to trust them).

And then there's the feeling of uncertainty. That feeling of, "he doesn't seem like a bad person and he is offering to help, should I really be judging him so harshly?" That feeling of "am I being unduly paranoid?" that always competes with personal security concerns.

At the same time, I'm also aware that he is probably stronger than me. If I accept his help and he does turn on me, am I physically capable of fending him off? This question has some variation due to clothing as well. If I'm coming back from some place that I wore heels to, I definitely can't fight or run in those (sometimes just walking in those monsters is difficult enough). If I'm wearing a skirt, I'm also definitely going to feel much more vulnerable than if I'm wearing jeans.

And don't forget that this storm of concerns and emotions is going on in the time it takes for the stranger who asked "need a hand?" or said "looks like you could use some help." to expect a simple "yes" or "no" or "please" or "thank you so much" in reply.

And if I do agree to help and he does very kindly change my flat tire, there's a small moment of anxiety at the end. Is he going to expect something from me for his time and effort? How should I react if he asks for my number, or a date, after he changes my tire? I don't want to be mean to him: he did just help me out. At the same time though, I'll also feel at least a little bit as if he expects me to give in to his request as a form of payment for his time. He may not mean it that way. I think a lot of men who ask for a number or a date after giving assistance don't intend to extort a date from the woman they've helped. However, I think a lot of them don't think about the feeling of obligation I would be having at that moment. A request for a phone number or a date in a moment like that always has a pseudo-predatory feel to me because of that feeling of obligation.

Please note that I did not go through this exercise to scold you or to show how you just can't understand what it's like to be a woman. I think most men are capable of understanding, if they put their minds to it, but I think that all too often they entirely neglect to consider the emotional and social pressure aspects of a situation.
 

cmad1977

Hero
Presumably I am. Which makes it very hard for me to say anything that is in any way constructive, since the first thing I have to prove is that I'm not a "white male terrorist".
.

Incorrect. If you are not her target you don't have to prove anything. There is zero logic to you feeling targeted. I don't and I'm right in the target demographic. She's spot on.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
But I don't believe that there is an especially large intersection between gamers and sexism, or between gamers and abuse, above and beyond our slice of the world. It would however be nice to clean up our little portion of the world, whether or not we have an especial problem.

I'm pretty sure that the gamerverse is statistically normal in those regards, but I think that there may be less recognition of the problem- within and without of the hobby. It is uncomfortable for us as gamers- members of a niche hobby, villified as "satanists" in the 1980s, many of us bullied as outsiders/nerds/geeks- to actually see and read about others like us being predators. It breaks our communal rose-colored self-image.

It's a common thing for groups to be unaware of how statistically normal they really are, even when discussing aberrant behavior. Many people criticize Catholicism for harboring pedophiles. The reality is that the percentage of offenders in the Catholic priesthood is essentially indistinguishable from rates in other faiths.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Please note that I did not go through this exercise to scold you or to show how you just can't understand what it's like to be a woman. I think most men are capable of understanding, if they put their minds to it, but I think that all too often they entirely neglect to consider the emotional and social pressure aspects of a situation.

I think there are cases where that is true, but I think it's also true that men are continually on the other end of these awkward social exchanges, and are often thinking all the same sorts of thoughts from the other end of it. True, when we are in these awkward exchanges, we aren't also the ones that are feeling threatened and intimidated by the size or strength of the other person in it, which is bound to make things even more uncomfortable for the woman than it is for us.

But keep in mind, most men are probably pretty darn wary of strange men as well. Violence between men is not unknown either.

So yes, if I see a woman changing a tire beside the road, my mind starts going, "Should I stop? If I stop, will she be afraid of me? She might panic and call 9/11 if some stranger just shows up. Or she might get offended. She might think that I think she can't change the tire herself. Probably she can change the tire herself. Or if she can't, she's probably called some friend or relative, and me stopping will just be awkward and unwanted." And by the time I think all that, it's too late to stop, and the world just became a little less civil and polite place. The sexist part is admittedly, all this probably won't go through my head if I see a man changing a tire. I'll just think, "Poor guy. What an awful place to have a flat."

But sure, none of what you describe is really anything other than what I would have imagined about the situation.

Or, to give you another situation. I used to commute along a strip that had a lot of hitchhikers. I used to stop and give them rides. I would however never advice my daughters to give rides to strange men.

But did it occur to you that I would have advice my sons never to give a ride to a strange woman. Can you imagine why?
 

Elf Witch

First Post
Is it surprising that you'd be wary around strangers, and especially around strange men? Not at all. Seems completely reasonable to me. But as I said from the beginning, I'm also not at all surprised that we are just talking past each other on this.

I tried very hard to forestall this walling off response, about how I didn't understand what it was like to be a woman where that was made the substance of the rebuttle of what I said, or the whole of the understanding of it. And, sure, in the sense that I was watching rather than participating when my children were born, there are some experiences unique and particular to being a woman that are quite beyond my imagination to grasp. But it's not that sort of experience we are talking about. Despite my many asides to concede the reasonableness that being a woman might give you a different perspective, here we are. So let's take this more directly head on.

It's not beyond a man's capacity to walk a mile in a woman's shoes or visa versa. Men and women are gifted with fantastic imaginations, and intellects, and likewise we also share in common experiences of being marginalized, of being threatened, of being victimized, of being bullied, of being harassed, and in some cases of being brutalized. What is needed is more discussion over what we have in common, rather more lines drawn around us to separate us into little tribes.

I'm well aware of what women are taught and arguably need to be taught about being safe around men, and avoiding being alone with strange men, and so forth. I have to do the job of teaching it.

You managed to make yourself livid over your assumption of my blindness despite all the effort I took to forestall that by admitting that we had very different experiences, and in part that those experiences were because I was a man. All that was admitted up front. And her anger and suspicion of me and anyone that looks like me were conceded as reasonable from her background many times in my writing. There is I admit truth to the fact that people can come from different places, and experience different things. And while there is some truth to the statement that we can never know exactly what it is like to be someone else, I firmly believe that it is also true that that is not an absolute barrier to our compassion and understanding of one another. And I likewise believe that it is good to act on the hope that other can relate and sympathize with our struggles and our difficulties and all the hardships we've endured as people, not merely as men or women.



I do too.



I do too, and said as much.



Ultimately, it doesn't matter why you've been marginalized and harassed. It doesn't hurt less to get marginalized and harassed because you are a woman or because you are autistic nerdy white boy with a deep tan and a Caribbean accent in a rural Southern town where many people have never had the resources to go more than 30 miles from where they were born. The majority is just whoever outnumbers you, which when you are in a community of one, is everybody. And privilege and protection is not something that is particular to a skin color, but can be simply just being the popular kid. Telling someone about privilege of being white or male while they are getting kicked bloody by a half dozen black men four to six years older than you simply because they've been taught to feel threatened by white people, and maybe even with legitimate reason, but this is a scrawny white kid no body will protect who they can take that frustration out on.



Then maybe they should look at the person. I hear from black people from privileged backgrounds about the sort of racism they endured - the looks they receive, or the jokes that they've heard, and so forth. And I'm sure it hurts. I can sympathize. My sympathy gets strained when they start talking about those minor incidents as evidence that they need more privilege, or evidence that I could never understand the pain that they experience from taunting, especially from people who tell me they've never actually been the victims of violence but live in continual fear of it. I tend to start thinking its not my imagination that is actually limited by experience here.



Because it's wrong. And it's not merely wrong, but it's destructive and dangerous, and needs to be challenged. And disagreement with you might make me an insensitive jerk, I'm hardly the best at social skills, but any jerkiness on my part isn't directed especially at women or minorities.

Don't expect my challenging things that need to be challenged to be limited to just those things you think need to be challenged.



You really think no one says that all whites are racists? Or that no one believes that? I grant the majority of black people don't believe that, but many do. I mean, I've had a black friend of mine get involved with a church that taught the theology that white people were the creation of the devil and they didn't actually have souls. And he believed it, to the extent that it made him sad that I couldn't go to heaven.

You don't have to go far to find many people arguing that all white people are racists. You don't have to go far to find people arguing that black people can't be racists.

You think I haven't developed thick skin? You think my experiences haven't left me wary?

Why don't we focus on what we have in common instead of assuming we just can't possibly understand each other?



That probably made you feel uncomfortable. We can talk about those specific issues, but is there really a point in talking about them until we get passed this idea we live in such different worlds that we can't see anything from the other's point of view? Or we can sit here and debate whose victimization gives us the most authority to tell everyone that disagrees with us to shut up because they just can't possibly understand.

Yes it made me livid because it is something that every woman who talks about this on any internet forum has to deal with the men who feel the need to get butt hurt over it and bring up the whole not all men rape, some women lie about rape, hey did you know men get raped too. It is an emotional subject and one I have dealt with a lot. So instead of responding right away I walked away to cool off and to explain my position in a rational way. Which is why men need to understand that women are raised to view them with a wary eye. And yes that put the burden on you.

Just like if I am dealing with a POC the burden to show that I am not a racist is on me. Why because I belong to group that is in power.

I don't think anyone is saying it hurts less to be bullied or hurt just because you are in the majority. Your example of a white boy being beaten up by black men is an example of this what they did was wrong and hurtful and horrible. But it was individual men doing it and while there is no doubt that there is black on white violence it is not something that has happened to white men while the authorities stood around and did nothing. It is not institutionalized racism being done by the society. I got the crap knocked out of me in a riot in my middle school by several black girls who were just looking for someone white to hit. A cop had killed an armed young black man who had gotten in a scuffle with two white guys in a bar for groping his girlfriend. The racial tensions blew that day in school. I was upset and angry I didn't think I deserved to be beat up I was not racist I thought the cop had been in the wrong. It took me years to understand the difference between what those girls did to me and and good ole boys sheriff deputies abusing their power on people of color. When was the last time if ever you heard of black people torching a white church or a angry mob of black people lynching a white person?

Is it wrong to label an entire group as wrong doers yes it is. But that is not what this blogger did she said that gaming has a white male terrorist problem not all white male gamers are terrorist so no need to jump to the defense of all white male gamers. I am not going to assume that you are jerk I have never seen any evidence of that in your posts. But you should be aware that misogynist men do use tactics like this to deflect away from the issue being discussed. Racist use it too.

Having experiences in common allow us the ability to empathize and we should absolutely try and find common ground with them. You just have to be careful that it is done in away that is emphatic but not to diminish what the the person is saying. Let me give you an example POC often talk about how they are ignored by sales people in upper scale stores. I can empathize because as a fat woman that happens to me a lot as well it is like I am invisible. But I have to be careful how I phrase it other wise it comes across as well that happens to fat people too. The difference being if I lost weight as a white woman the situation would change for me for a person of color it wouldn't until society changes. And that right there is how privilege works.

I think it is important to discuss these things to shine a light on what the roaches are doing. Just being aware that these things happen to women and POC in gaming/geek hobbies allows all of us the ability to make things better. I had a conversation with a younger DM a few years ago about how he had zero female NPCs in power how the only female NPCs we ever saw were either sinners or saints. At first he got all upset he didn't understand where I was coming from because my PC was treated well. How I finally got him to understand was to use his personal experience of being the only geek in a family of non geeks and how that made him feel. He hated that his family treated him like an oddity. I pointed out that in away my PC felt like an oddity.

My point is no I am not telling you or anyone to shut up.
 

Springheel

First Post
So, I see no claim that "all white males are terrorists", here. I see a claim that there is a problem with the (perceived) existence of an exclusive "white male culture" that condones and protects misogynists. And I think that claim is accurate. The solution is to make it cease to be so.

She may not make the claim that ALL white males are terrorists, but she certainly paints the community with a broad brush:

"the majority of men in the community are too cowardly to stand against the bullies and the terrorists. "

"The majority of gamers ... are instead complicit in lower levels of harassment."

"It is almost impossible to convince gamers that sexist and racist jokes are unacceptable"

"The prominence of white male terrorism in the geek community is obvious "

"#allmen are complicit in the harassment. "

"the majority of gamers refuse to speak up in support of those marginalised "


Her message probably would have been better received without the overgeneralizing. There are definitely creeps and predators in the gaming community, but to suggest that the majority fall into those categories, or even that the majority support that behaviour, is both misleading and offensive.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️‍⚧️
After all, if you get mugged you can always cancel your credit cards and earn back the money you lost, but a victim of sexual assault can never be un-assaulted.

That may be being a little dismissive of the trauma of being mugged. I won't equate it with being sexually assaulted, but people can and do often come away with significantly more trauma than simply having to cancel a credit card, particularly when the mugging is violent.

And the blame aspect that you mentioned is especially shameful. We don't accuse mugging victims of flaunting their wealth, or carjack victims of driving too nice a car, or home invasion victims of having too nice a home. And even if we did, that would in absolutely no way hold water as any kind of judicial escape hatch for the mugger, carjacker, or home invader. However, when it comes to victims of sexual harassment or violence both men and women on juries are often swayed, or at least influenced, by the victim's attire, sexual history, etc.

Actually, in many cases, I'd say we do chide mugging victims for walking through the wrong areas, burglary victims for not keeping their homes locked, and many people are advised to avoid buying cars in colors that more often get stolen. But in all of those cases, we're still mostly clear, as a society, that it's the crime perpetrator who is solely to blame even if the victim could have exercised a little more security consciousness. That's where we fall down on dealing with sexual harassment and sexual violence - we should be able to teach and advise people on how to reduce their chances of being a victim without being accused of blaming the victim - but we have to actually stop blaming the victim before we can reach that point.
 

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