Harassment in gaming

[Dannyalcatraz]

She may not make the claim that ALL white males are terrorists, but she certainly paints the community with a broad brush:

"the majority of men in the community are too cowardly to stand against the bullies and the terrorists. "

"The majority of gamers ... are instead complicit in lower levels of harassment."

"It is almost impossible to convince gamers that sexist and racist jokes are unacceptable"

"The prominence of white male terrorism in the geek community is obvious "

"#allmen are complicit in the harassment. "

"the majority of gamers refuse to speak up in support of those marginalised "


Her message probably would have been better received without the overgeneralizing. There are definitely creeps and predators in the gaming community, but to suggest that the majority fall into those categories, or even that the majority support that behaviour, is both misleading and offensive.

Here's the thing: I haven't seen evidence that gamers ARE publically standing up in appreciable numbers. Her account of the letch asking her age and starting the chant- taken up by others in the store- "old enough to bleed, old enough to breed" is pretty damning. That speaks of being extremely comfortable with not being held accountable.

Ditto the lesser incident I described upthread, in which a woman was "eyeballed" out of a gaming store. I doubt the owners- a married couple- would have tolerated it had they been there at the time. But nobody did/said a word in rebuke of the behavior. Hell- I admit I was boggled and didn't say a word. In retrospect, I should have.

 

[Celebrim]

Yes it made me livid because it is something that every woman who talks about this on any internet forum has to deal with the men who feel the need to get butt hurt over it and bring up the whole not all men rape, some women lie about rape, hey did you know men get raped too.

Ok. But then if that is how you feel about 'what-abouting' this sort of thing, why did you go from there to here:

I don't think anyone is saying it hurts less to be bullied or hurt just because you are in the majority. Your example of a white boy being beaten up by black men is an example of this what they did was wrong and hurtful and horrible. But it was individual men doing it and while there is no doubt that there is black on white violence it is not something that has happened to white men while the authorities stood around and did nothing. It is not institutionalized racism being done by the society.

Isn't that just as much 'what-abouting'?

I don't agree with your arguments about vaguely defined privilege and how it's different depending on what your skin color is. That's just more giving excuses; the very thing you say you are against. You getting beat up unjustly by a gang of black girls looking for someone white to hit; sounds to me like injustice. You don't get a victim pass to do that regardless of what made you angry.

I'm not going to go into the details and pulling more anecdotes out to keep countering your examples of what does or doesn't happen out there. More things are out there than exist in your view of the world. I'm not going to go there though because it's not about who gets the most victim cards to play to excuse their anger. It's about the fact that people treat each other poorly, and we need to not be a part of that. It's about being the person that says, "You know, because I've known what it is to be treated unjustly, I'm not going to treat you that way."

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Actually, in many cases, I'd say we do chide mugging victims for walking through the wrong areas, burglary victims for not keeping their homes locked, and many people are advised to avoid buying cars in colors that more often get stolen. But in all of those cases, we're still mostly clear, as a society, that it's the crime perpetrator who is solely to blame even if the victim could have exercised a little more security consciousness. That's where we fall down on dealing with sexual harassment and sexual violence - we should be able to teach and advise people on how to reduce their chances of being a victim without being accused of blaming the victim - but we have to actually stop blaming the victim before we can reach that point.

2 basic rules help a lot: Be aware of your surroundings. Don't make yourself look like easy prey.

I don't wear my best jewelry when I go in certain neighborhoods. I don't get drunk in public (well, much of anytime, anymore). Etc.

There was a horrendous case when I was in Austin- a biker gang raped a woman, then beat her half to death. They caught the SOBs and convicted them for it...along with a host of weapons & drug charges besides. But the thing is, at trial it came out she was blackout drunk and dancing naked on a pool table in their club. She was so blotto, the only reason the bikers were caught at all was an uninvolved person witnessed and reported the events (and apparently had to go into the Witness Protection program).

Is she to blame? Absolutely not. What she did is no excuse for their criminal assault. However, she did metaphorically wear a suit of pork chops into a tiger cage. She lost awareness and control, which made her easy prey. That's her irresponsibility.

 

[Curmudjinn]

The Rogue One trailer comments on YouTube reminded me of this thread. Crazy amounts of sexism and damning the franchise over a female lead again. Like the worst subReddits.

P.S. Can't wait to see it..

 

[MechaPilot]

I think there are cases where that is true, but I think it's also true that men are continually on the other end of these awkward social exchanges, and are often thinking all the same sorts of thoughts from the other end of it. True, when we are in these awkward exchanges, we aren't also the ones that are feeling threatened and intimidated by the size or strength of the other person in it, which is bound to make things even more uncomfortable for the woman than it is for us.

I agree that there's a social awkwardness that men face when dealing with women. For example, it can't be easy for a man to walk up to a group of women and try to talk to one of them without feeling weird with regard to what the proper social interaction with the rest of the group is.

But keep in mind, most men are probably pretty darn wary of strange men as well. Violence between men is not unknown either.

Granted, but with the following caveats:
1) most male on male violence is non-sexual in nature (and sexual violence is particularly damaging to the victim and egregious), and
2) most male on male violence is perpetrated because someone wants your property or your money and you refuse to give it up.

Being mugged is certainly scary, and the loss of cash and having to report credit cards stolen is an exasperating inconvenience. However, handing over your wallet or your new sneakers to avoid violence (while scary and depressing and probably insulting to one's manhood) is a far different matter than an attacker only being satisfied after they've savagely and degradingly violated the sanctity of one's person.

Now please don't think I'm saying that male on male sexual violence is not a thing that happens. It definitely does, particularly in prisons. And please don't think I'm blind to male on male violence that is non-sexual but also not property related. Hate crimes and drunken brawls are good examples of the latter.

So yes, if I see a woman changing a tire beside the road, my mind starts going, "Should I stop? If I stop, will she be afraid of me? She might panic and call 9/11 if some stranger just shows up. Or she might get offended. She might think that I think she can't change the tire herself. Probably she can change the tire herself. Or if she can't, she's probably called some friend or relative, and me stopping will just be awkward and unwanted." And by the time I think all that, it's too late to stop, and the world just became a little less civil and polite place. The sexist part is admittedly, all this probably won't go through my head if I see a man changing a tire. I'll just think, "Poor guy. What an awful place to have a flat."

But sure, none of what you describe is really anything other than what I would have imagined about the situation.

That's interesting. It does make me wonder how prevalent it is for men to think that way. I recall my father telling me about a time that he stopped to help a woman shovel out her car that had skidded into a snow bank. We're really close, and he didn't mention anything about being apprehensive about helping her. Of course, that was also in the middle of the day on the shoulder of a busy street. And, even if he didn't have any apprehension he is just one person and not necessarily indicative of the whole of men.

Or, to give you another situation. I used to commute along a strip that had a lot of hitchhikers. I used to stop and give them rides. I would however never advice my daughters to give rides to strange men.

But did it occur to you that I would have advice my sons never to give a ride to a strange woman. Can you imagine why?

Yes, I can imagine why. First, one should be wary of all hitchhikers. They could easily be armed, and one is not able to defend oneself well while driving. Also, accidents and misunderstandings happen. A male driver could accidentally touch a female hitchhiker, perhaps while shifting gears, provoking a molestation misunderstanding. Plus, some women are unscrupulous and will extort a driver with the threat of claiming rape or molestation.

 

[Celebrim]

Yes, I can imagine why. First, one should be wary of all hitchhikers. They could easily be armed, and one is not able to defend oneself well while driving. Also, accidents and misunderstandings happen. A male driver could accidentally touch a female hitchhiker, perhaps while shifting gears, provoking a molestation misunderstanding. Plus, some women are unscrupulous and will extort a driver with the threat of claiming rape or molestation.

That's not a bad summary, but that's not the real fundamental reason. The fundamental reason is that if anything happens at all, and it comes down to his word versus hers, he'll never be believed. As man you have to accept that if it's ever your word against hers, there will be no presumption of innocence on your part. And that's doubly true because no one will ever believe a man has anything other than a unsavory motive for picking up a strange woman.

 

[MechaPilot]

That may be being a little dismissive of the trauma of being mugged. I won't equate it with being sexually assaulted, but people can and do often come away with significantly more trauma than simply having to cancel a credit card, particularly when the mugging is violent.

Perhaps slightly, though I didn't intend to be so. Being mugged is certainly scary. Being physically assaulted as part of the mugging is, I'm sure, even more so. Having been the victim of a burglary, I know the feeling of the loss of security in one's home. I imagine a mugging has a similar effect, although it probably doesn't violate the security one feels while in her own home.

 

[Elf Witch]

Ok. But then if that is how you feel about 'what-abouting' this sort of thing, why did you go from there to here:



Isn't that just as much 'what-abouting'?

I don't agree with your arguments about vaguely defined privilege and how it's different depending on what your skin color is. That's just more giving excuses; the very thing you say you are against. You getting beat up unjustly by a gang of black girls looking for someone white to hit; sounds to me like injustice. You don't get a victim pass to do that regardless of what made you angry.

I'm not going to go into the details and pulling more anecdotes out to keep countering your examples of what does or doesn't happen out there. More things are out there than exist in your view of the world. I'm not going to go there though because it's not about who gets the most victim cards to play to excuse their anger. It's about the fact that people treat each other poorly, and we need to not be a part of that. It's about being the person that says, "You know, because I've known what it is to be treated unjustly, I'm not going to treat you that way."

I honestly don't know how to explain this to you. No one is saying that beating up someone because you have been mistreated is okay and excusable and that they should be cut some slack because of it.

Maybe this will help here is the definition of institutionalized racism Institutional racism (also known as institutionalised racism) is a form of racism expressed in the practice of social and political institutions, as distinct from racism by individuals or informal social groups. It is reflected in disparities regarding criminal justice, employment, housing, health care, political power and education, among other things. Whether implicitly or explicitly expressed, institutional racism occurs when a certain group is targeted and discriminated against based upon race. Institutional racism can go unnoticed as it is not always explicit and can be overlooked.

I have also tried to explain how what about is used to discredit and silence people speaking up about an injustice. By focusing on her comments about white males in gaming and how she should not have painted with such a broad brush the subject of the harassment of women and POC gets shunted to the side. It is an effective tactic.

 

[MechaPilot]

That's not a bad summary, but that's not the real fundamental reason. The fundamental reason is that if anything happens at all, and it comes down to his word versus hers, he'll never be believed. As man you have to accept that if it's ever your word against hers, there will be no presumption of innocence on your part. And that's doubly true because no one will ever believe a man has anything other than a unsavory motive for picking up a strange woman.

Taking a moment to think about it, I think you're probably right about that. I hold the position that the presumption of innocence is vital to our system of justice. I also think the double standard that exists between the assumption of male impropriety toward female hitchhikers who claim to be victims and the general shaming and blaming of other women who claim to be victims is quite sad.

 

[Elf Witch]

That's not a bad summary, but that's not the real fundamental reason. The fundamental reason is that if anything happens at all, and it comes down to his word versus hers, he'll never be believed. As man you have to accept that if it's ever your word against hers, there will be no presumption of innocence on your part. And that's doubly true because no one will ever believe a man has anything other than a unsavory motive for picking up a strange woman.

That is simply not true. Do you know how hard it is to prosecute sexual assaults cases where there is no witnesses or violence? It comes down to he said she said and the burden of proving it lies on the rape victim and you have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

It is often what happens when a woman reports to the police incidents of being groped all the guy has to say is I didn't touch her and without more proof usually the cops don't bother to arrest the guy and even if they do it usually does not go to court.

It happens at cons when a women tells security of an incident if she can't back it up with proof other than her word even if the con has a policy of ejecting harassers out they tend to err on the side of the person being accused.

It is a tough thing because there are women who have lied about being raped or being harassed.

BTW no one should be picking up hitchhikers I drilled that in my son head not because I was worried about some girl screaming assault but you can't tell if someone is a criminal just by looking at them. I have a family member who was a Navy seal who used to pick up female hitchhikers because he wanted them to be safe. The last one he ever picked up an innocent looking teen girl shot in in the head and robbed him. He lived but his life changed due to brain injury trauma.