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D&D 5E Weak Saving Throws

CapnZapp

Legend
The truth of the game, Aaron, is that loads of player characters will have a -1 or 0 in their weakest save, and that the rules stipulate that any level 20 spellcaster with ability 20 will have a DC of 19+. And so the game *will* feature saving throws you can't make.

Nobody forces you into this situation. It's what you get if you play the game in the most straightforward manner. Suggesting otherwise is disingenious.

The designers could easily have avoided this situation. They didn't. End of story.

It's a flaw, or this thread wouldn't soon hit 500 posts.

Whether it's a significant flaw, and if not fixing it had other, positive, results, are different matters. But it's a flaw.

Which you absolutely refuse to see.
 

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AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
Nobody forces you into this situation. It's what you get if you play the game in the most straightforward manner. Suggesting otherwise is disingenious.
I find it interesting when you and I both can say "I read the 5th edition rules, and what came out of that is the play that happens at my table" and be reaching completely different situations, and while I phrase mine as being what happens at my table and expect nothing but that if someone did as I am doing they would reach the same play experience - you phrase yours as if your experience inherently matches the experience of pretty much everyone else besides my table full of players.

Which you absolutely refuse to see.
Stop lying about me. It undermines your own opinions, and makes you look petty.
 

ChrisCarlson

First Post
The truth of the game, Aaron, is that loads of player characters will have a -1 or 0 in their weakest save, and that the rules stipulate that any level 20 spellcaster with ability 20 will have a DC of 19+. And so the game *will* feature saving throws you can't make.
So these white-roomed PCs have had 20 levels to consider how to address their weak saves and chose to do nothing about it? Then complain that they can't make a save? Brilliant.

The designers could easily have avoided this situation. They didn't. End of story.
Quite the opposite. They intended the situation because its a feature not a bug. You not liking something does not make it a flaw.

It's a flaw, or this thread wouldn't soon hit 500 posts.
Be careful attributing validity to thread length. Otherwise I have a certain few threads that make my opinions unassailable... ;)
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Good thing there is nothing in the game that forces a player to only have +/-1 for their "bad" save(s), and nothing in the game that forces a DM to use creatures with DCs of 19+ on their abilities.
There are no issues because we can choose to ignore them? Arguably more true for 5e than for any version since the early days. I could absolutely choose never to use same-level monsters that forced saves as written, it's not even much of a burden, as I frequently change up monsters, anyway. A fighter could invest all his ASIs in CHA and WIS, and get his saves all the way up to +4 in each (or, if feats are on the table, use them to gain multiple save proficiencies), while leaving his STR at 16, and his Indomitable would just manage to mean something when some 20+ CR monster tried to dominate him.

Still not so true that I wouldn't consider a simple variant to 'fix' the problem over just pretending it wasn't there.

The truth of the game, Aaron, is that loads of player characters will have a -1 or 0 in their weakest save, and that the rules stipulate that any level 20 spellcaster with ability 20 will have a DC of 19+. And so the game *will* feature saving throws you can't make.
Well, if we assume array...

15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8

and no feats...

All classes get at least 5 ASIs, right? 5 ASIs is a +10 distributed over 6 stats. Assume you had a +2 racial in your highest stat and want to max it. That's 15+2= 17 + 3 f/asis is maxxed at 20. You have 7 points left. 1 to round up that 13.

20, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8 and 6 points left.

2 to the 10, 4 to the 8.

20, 14, 14, 12, 12, 12

Not 0 or -1 save. One +5 (probably +11 at 17th, because it's likely your proficient in your primary, one at +8, and the rest go: +2, +1, +1, +1). That's a pretty obsessively CYA stat distribution. There are a few DC 22 and 23 saves in the MM. There's also some +1 save items in the DMG.

Doesn't sound like untouchable save DCs are quite inevitable. They can happen. Of course, the DM could always set a DC as high as he wants, or narrate failure on a save without calling for a roll, or create an effect that gives no save.


Whether it's a significant flaw, and if not fixing it had other, positive, results, are different matters. But it's a flaw.
It also seems to me that it's a fairly easy fix. Even the 'just don't use/just reduce higher save DCs' suggestion addresses it, if not ideally.

I'm increasingly thinking that it'd be a good idea, not just for saves, but across the board, to change the +2 to +6 over 20 levels proficiency progression of 5e Bounded Accuracy to +0 to +4 over 20 levels across the board (all rolls, maybe even AC), with a static +2 for proficiency. Stated exactly that way it does mute Expertise, but I'm not sure that's a terrible thing, and it only directly impacts two classes...
 
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ChrisCarlson

First Post
Joe: I have a weak save! Even using an ASI to bolster it, I still suck!
Mike: If you're spending an ASI to raise a low stat for the save bonus, just use the resilient feat instead.
Joe: But feats are an "optional rule"! I can't assume them!
Mike: ???

The tools are there to make your game work for you. Use them.
 

AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
Still not so true that I wouldn't consider a simple variant to 'fix' the problem over just pretending it wasn't there.
It's not pretending this problem isn't there - it's acknowledging that it isn't a problem for everyone. It's a subtle, but extremely important, difference.

Yes, people that experience a problem should absolutely fix that problem. They just shouldn't insist it is a universal problem to which there should be some universal solution.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
It's not pretending this problem isn't there - it's acknowledging that it isn't a problem for everyone. It's a subtle, but extremely important, difference.
I can see how it's subtle.

I can't see how it matters enough to argue against. If you don't perceive the issue, you don't fix it. It might or might not bite you at some future date, or you might like that saves get relatively harder to make at high level.

Yes, people that experience a problem should absolutely fix that problem. They just shouldn't insist it is a universal problem to which there should be some universal solution.
I don't see how there could be a universal solution. WotC hasn't exactly been re-working the game's core math to address player concerns this time around.
We're talking possible house rules, at most. You're in no danger of every having to play a character with better saves. I promise.
 

AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
We're talking possible house rules, at most. You're in no danger of every having to play a character with better saves. I promise.
Yes, I realize that to be the case.

It doesn't happen to stop some people from arguing for solutions beyond house rules, or from making the annoying claim that when I tell them "Just house-rule it" I am being something ranging from "entirely unhelpful" to "refusing to see any flaws in 5th edition" or what have you.
 

Eric V

Hero
Well, if we assume array...

15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8

and no feats...

All classes get at least 5 ASIs, right? 5 ASIs is a +10 distributed over 6 stats. Assume you had a +2 racial in your highest stat and want to max it. That's 15+2= 17 + 3 f/asis is maxxed at 20. You have 7 points left. 1 to round up that 13.

20, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8 and 6 points left.

2 to the 10, 4 to the 8.

20, 14, 14, 12, 12, 12

Not 0 or -1 save. One +5 (probably +11 at 17th, because it's likely your proficient in your primary, one at +8, and the rest go: +2, +1, +1, +1).

So even trying one's best, half your saves would be at only +1.

In a game without feats, there is no choice, so one could shoot for this (for whatever it's worth...)

In a game that includes feats, choosing such an array for saves is so unlikely as to be absurd and impossible to talk about seriously, only in terms of "Hey, anything's possible." ("Yay, no I have a 5% chance of success instead of 0%...)

In either event, pretending that the player can do something effective to address this weakness is just that...pretending.
 


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