D&D 5E Classic High Level Threats?

[TerraDave]

Well, I have a whole thread on that subject, 5e Epic Monster Updates: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?468639-5e-EPIC-MONSTER-UPDATES

I think I currently have just over 200 monsters identified and just half of that completed. That being said I don't know how many would be considered "classic." Here is a quick list of what I would call classic high level threats, but there are probably more.

Abominations (many types)
Angels (MM)
Beholders (both 2e and 4e had some variants higher CR than 5e)
Demodands
Demon Lords (OotA)
Greater Demons (some in MM)
Greater Devils (some in MM)
Arch Devils
Demilich (MM)
Dragons (MM)
Elder Brain (Volo - but lower CR)
Golems (MM) - could add more (adamantine)
Kraken (MM)
Lich (MM)
Purpleworm (MM)
Sladdi (white, black, & lords)
Tarrasque (MM)
Titan (Empyrean? - MM)
Yuan ti Anathema (Volo - but lower CR)
Yugoloths

I agree that in fact D&D does have iconic high level threats. Many of them. If anything, the first Monster Manual was almost certainly "top heavy" given the typical party of the time.

As others have noted, their is something circular to this. For example, many of the demons and devils in the current MM could have been made higher level threats, but weren't. This tendency to level monsters down goes back to 3e.

So, what's missing from the list above? Giants. As written in 5e they could be a high level threat. Of course an adventure with giants was just released, what is the level range for that?

 

[dave2008]

I'm rather fond of the Atropal.

Me too. I actually like many of the abominations. Many of them have appeared in at least 2 editions now so I think they are boarding on iconic.

I really liked 4e's primordials, but I don't think I could call them iconic.

I do think the Princes of Elemental Evil qualify as iconic though and I forgot to list them.

 

[dave2008]

I agree that in fact D&D does have iconic high level threats. Many of them. If anything, the first Monster Manual was almost certainly "top heavy" given the typical party of the time.

As others have noted, their is something circular to this. For example, many of the demons and devils in the current MM could have been made higher level threats, but weren't. This tendency to level monsters down goes back to 3e.

So, what's missing from the list above? Giants. As written in 5e they could be a high level threat. Of course an adventure with giants was just released, what is the level range for that?

Volo's does have a CR 16 giant in it (and a CR 14 one as well), but they only go to 13 in the MM.

The SKT is for level 1-10

 

[TerraDave]

Volo's does have a CR 16 giant in it (and a CR 14 one as well), but they only go to 13 in the MM.

The SKT is for level 1-10

Right, 13 is more then, say, 5.

And you could have a whole bunch of giants, all together. Even in the same big huge room.

I vaguely remember some adventures that did that.

 

[Quickleaf]

If it was featured in an AP I would call it iconic and more so it was given stats over multiple editions like Kyuss has. Kyuss is iconic, however, the Worm that Walks from the Epic Level Handbook is not. Given the amount of confusion in this thread alone I think we have proven that.

Use some imagination in adapting it?

It doesn't need to be a direct 1-to-1 conversion/update.

Kyuss has been on the scene since Fiend Folio 1981, as far as I remember. And there were lots of people running Age of Worms adventure path who relied on the 3.5e Elder Evils "Worm That Walks" (not sure if it's the same as the one in Epic Level Handbook...I'm not a 3e guy).

But that's enough game history to call the "Kyuss/The Worm That Walks" concept broadly iconic.

 

[Jester David]

Thing is, I haven't memorized a MM since the 80s, so I'm actually not sure what's 'missing' from the latest one.

Which was meant to be the point of this thread: get people talking about favourite high level threats, checking their own books for monsters, and tossing out ideas. Get some Crowdforging going and creativity. Finding those hidden gems and personal favourites.

But I guess people would just rather argue about why high level play fails and if the Worm that Walks is or is not the same thing as Kyuss...

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

But I guess people would just rather argue about why high level play fails and if the Worm that Walks is or is not the same thing as Kyuss...

You don't like time-travelling illithids, demons, dragons, and space invasions? Or are you waiting for more detail?

 

[Tony Vargas]

You don't like time-travelling illithids, demons, dragons, and space invasions?

"Increase speed, drop down and reverse direction!"

 

[Jester David]

You don't like time-travelling illithids,

The Elder Brain is CR 14. That's high level but not quite endgame. Mind Flayers are really a mid-game menace, not an endgame. The last 5 levels of play.

demons, dragons, and space invasions? Or are you waiting for more detail?

And you can't just fight dragons and demons for five levels. That's cool, but gets old. And it's only good for a single campaign.
Between Volo's Guide and the MM there are 24 monsters between CR 15 and 20, and another 14 CR 21+ (And this includes an the metallic dragons and a few other good creatures).
With the adventures, there are another 14. Most of those above CR 20.

That's not many.
(In comparison, there are more than 70 monsters of CR 1/4 and below... in the Monster Manual alone.)

 

[dave2008]

Use some imagination in adapting it?

It doesn't need to be a direct 1-to-1 conversion/update.

Kyuss has been on the scene since Fiend Folio 1981, as far as I remember. And there were lots of people running Age of Worms adventure path who relied on the 3.5e Elder Evils "Worm That Walks" (not sure if it's the same as the one in Epic Level Handbook...I'm not a 3e guy).

But that's enough game history to call the "Kyuss/The Worm That Walks" concept broadly iconic.

I think we are splitting hairs. But the worm that walks are creations of Kyuss (like the spawn of kyuss but more powerful). Again, not understanding the distinction between Kyuss and his creations (they can also appear "naturally") just proves that it, unlike Kyuss, is not iconic. No that doesn't mean it can't be updated. As I mentioned it is probably the next epic monster I am going to update to 5e.