D&D 5E DM Help! My rogue always spams Hide as a bonus action, and i cant target him!

[Maxperson]

Now to answer your question, the wood elf can be seen clearly and is out in the open because moderate foliage does not block vision. The only things that block vision are a heavily obscured area or an obstruction.

Clearly you don't understand what clearly means. "Obscured" and "seen clearly" are mutually exclusive.

 

[Maxperson]

I don't think being lightly obscured makes you not seen clearly, otherwise it would mean anyone can try to hide when lightly obscured. IMO the errata to Stealth was not made to now allow everyone to hide while still partially seen in light obscurement when saying you can't hide from someone who can see you clearly but more that some can even when seen with specific feat or features.

Anyone can try to hide when lightly obscured. They would need total obscurement to succeed, though, unlike an elf. Both a human and an elf can attempt to hide where ONLY light foliage is present. Only the elf can succeed at the attempt, though. The human would need heavy foliage, such as a tree or thicket that blocks sight 100% to succeed.

 

[Corwin]

Hehe. The mental gymnastics around here are approaching gold medal caliber.

PHB, pg. 183: Vision and Light
The most fundamental tasks of adventuring—noticing
danger, finding hidden objects, hitting an enemy in
combat, and targeting a spell, to name just a few—
rely heavily on a character’s ability to see. Darkness
and other effects that obscure vision can prove a
significant hindrance.
A given area might be lightly or heavily obscured. In
a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog,
or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on
Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.

Please expound on how you reconcile the above with "seen clearly". Or maybe I'm just not using the same definitions of "seen" and "clearly" as you two. <shrug>

An observer would have disadvantage on a sight-dependent Perception check in a lightly obscured area, but that doesn't extend to Perception checks that rely on other senses, of which a Perception check to find a hidden creature is a prime example.

A hidden creature must already be out of sight, so finding it relies on hearing and other senses.

So when you folks have been saying “seen clearly”, what you really meant was, “all senses clearly”? I wish y’all would stick to a point. Or at least say what you mean. It’s really tough trying to kick a football between goalposts that are dancing around the endzone.

Now to answer your question, the wood elf can be seen clearly and is out in the open because moderate foliage does not block vision. The only things that block vision are a heavily obscured area or an obstruction.

I don't think being lightly obscured makes you not seen clearly, otherwise it would mean anyone can try to hide when lightly obscured.

This sounds more like you two are having an issue with an aberrant definition of “clearly” than any problem with the rules. And are you guys using a binary definition of “seen”? Because if it *was* binary, I don’t see a need for “clearly” to be added in the first place? I mean, “block” vision? Who said anything about vision having to be “blocked”? I don’t recall that anywhere in the the Sage’s response.

 

[SkidAce]

Doesn't anyone understand camouflage?

You blend in, you can still be seen, but you are not recognized for what you are.

Could an elf go camo while someone was watching? Not likely.

Could an elf or otherwise camo'd creature be in plain sight but still "hidden, unseen, etc" when someone else entered the area? Sure.

 

[Plaguescarred]

Anyone can try to hide when lightly obscured. They would need total obscurement to succeed, though, unlike an elf. Both a human and an elf can attempt to hide where ONLY light foliage is present. Only the elf can succeed at the attempt, though. The human would need heavy foliage, such as a tree or thicket that blocks sight 100% to succeed.

I don't think a human could try to hide while lightly obscured, not at least without the Skulker feat or some other features specifically allowing him to try.

Skulker: You can try to hide when you are lightly obscured from the creature from which you are hiding.

 

[Hriston]

I don't think being lightly obscured makes you not seen clearly, otherwise it would mean anyone can try to hide when lightly obscured.

We seem to agree on this. Unless a creature is distracted, blinded, petrified, or unconscious, it is assumed to see anyone from whom its vision is not blocked.

IMO the errata to Stealth was not made to now allow everyone to hide while still partially seen in light obscurement when saying you can't hide from someone who can see you clearly but more that some can even when seen with specific feat or features.

My take on this is that the insertion of the word clearly and the addition of the sentence "The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding." are of a piece. Taken together they mean that one of the DM's functions is to introduce into play the situations that allow a creature to be able to hide, and that the DM has full discretion over when appropriate circumstances prevail and is not beholden to line-of-sight. I.e., the DM decides if creatures are distracted, what areas are obscured and to what degree, and whether sufficient obstructions are present.

But everyone can try to hide and remain hidden when not seen clearly so that doesn't make much sense and doesn't clear up the confusion since you agreed with me when i said the elf could try to hide when as equally seen as the human;

I agreed that both are seen clearly in moderate foliage if they are not hidden. I also agreed that the wood elf has the ability to be hidden in moderate foliage and that the human does not. But I would never agree that anyone could be hidden while seen clearly. The two states are mutually exclusive.

If lightly obscured foliage never block vision as you correctly claim, and the Elf has a feature that let it try to hide in such foliage, that means the elf can effectively try to hide when creatures can still see him and this align with the Sage Advice!

The wood elf has the ability to be hidden in a situation where creatures could see him if he was not hidden! This doesn't mean that creatures can still see him when he is hidden. It also doesn't mean that creatures don't see him without his becoming hidden first. The wood elf needs to not be seen clearly before he can become hidden, and Mask of the Wild doesn't confer any ability to not be seen clearly before becoming hidden.

 

[guachi]

I love how you try to reduce combat to only melee. Sorry, but you can still hit an invisible opponent with spells IN COMBAT.

I don't care how quiet and invisible you are. If you are in the area of my fireball, cast in combat, you're a toasty elf.


They can be attacked, just not in melee. A fireball attack is effective against invisible enemies for example.

Casting fireball and causing saving throws to be made isn't an attack as defined by the game.

An attack requires an attack roll. Fireball doesn't use attack rolls so it's not at attack. Neither is Magic Missile, for example. It doesn't make attack rolls so it's not an attack.

 

[Maxperson]

I don't think a human could try to hide while lightly obscured, not at least without the Skulker feat or some other features specifically allowing him to try.

Skulker: You can try to hide when you are lightly obscured from the creature from which you are hiding.

You're not understanding what I am saying. There are two different requirements here in order to hide. 1) not being seen clearly. 2) a place to hide where you get get out of sight. While lightly obscured by ONLY light foliage, the human qualifies for 1, but not 2. A wood elf on the other hand qualifies for both due to its racial ability.

 

[Maxperson]

Casting fireball and causing saving throws to be made isn't an attack as defined by the game.

An attack requires an attack roll. Fireball doesn't use attack rolls so it's not at attack. Neither is Magic Missile, for example. It doesn't make attack rolls so it's not an attack.

Great. The fireball is still an attack as in, "I am attacking the enemy", but not an "Attack as in "melee attack the D&D definition." I was using the common usage of the word. The point that you seem to be ignoring is that the fireball is happening in combat and hits the invisible elves.

 

[pemerton]

Any human or elf can attempt to hide in a snowstorm. However, only a wood elf can actually hide behind falling snow due to its racial ability. A human would need a tree, rock or some other way to become hidden, and if such a thing was present, could succeed at the attempt to hide due to not being seen clearly.

In which case, what difference is the snow making to the human's chance to hide?

EDIT: Saw this, which offers part of an answer:

You're not understanding what I am saying. There are two different requirements here in order to hide. 1) not being seen clearly. 2) a place to hide where you get get out of sight. While lightly obscured by ONLY light foliage, the human qualifies for 1, but not 2. A wood elf on the other hand qualifies for both due to its racial ability.

But I still don't get what difference the snow is making - the human could just go behind the rock and would be not seen clearly (because not seen at all) and hence could try and hide.