What happens when... you modify Evards Black Tentaclers using Feats?

[Greenfield]

These questions haven't come up in play, but they will at some point.

Evard’s Black Tentacles
Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
This spell conjures a field of rubbery black tentacles, each 10 feet long. These waving members seem to spring forth from the earth, floor, or whatever surface is underfoot—including water. They grasp and entwine around creatures that enter the area, holding them fast and crushing them with great strength.
Every creature within the area of the spell must make a grapple check, opposed by the grapple check of the tentacles. Treat the tentacles attacking a particular target as a Large creature with a base attack bonus equal to your caster level and a Strength score of 19. Thus, its grapple check modifier is equal to your caster level +8. The tentacles are immune to all types of damage.
Once the tentacles grapple an opponent, they may make a grapple check each round on your turn to deal 1d6+4 points of bludgeoning damage. The tentacles continue to crush the opponent until the spell ends or the opponent escapes. Any creature that enters the area of the spell is immediately attacked by the tentacles.
Even creatures who aren’t grappling with the tentacles may move through the area at only half normal speed.
Material Component: A piece of tentacle from a giant octopus or a giant squid.

The spell says to treat it as a Large creature, which matches the Area and description: The 10 ft base of a Large creature, with 10 foot Reach (specified tentacle length) would cover an area with a 20 ft. radius, which is what the spell say it covers.

That would effectively give it a 15 ft base and 15 foot tentacles, for a 30 foot radius area.

So, do you now treat it as a Huge creature? Not suggesting that this would increase the Strength, since the spell isn't Enlarge Monster, but the size increase would add 4 to its Grapple modifier.

Additionally, when you increase the size, damage normally increases as well. Melee damage of D6 would become D8. Since Grapple damage is based on unarmed Melee damage plus Strength, that would give the spell Caster Level +12 for a Grapple check, and increase damage to D8 + 4 per round.

First, does my read/interpretation make sense, or am I reading too much into the "treat the tentacles as a Large creature with a Strength of 19" part?

How much of that would you allow?

Next question: The spell is a Conjuration/Creation spell. The Augment Summoning feat increases the STR and CON of any summoned monsters by 4. Would that add to the Strength of the Tentacles?

This one is harder to justify since it isn't technically a summoned monster, it's a Conjuration spell that is treated as a monster.

Final question: When Grappling, a creature that doesn't give the Grapple its full attention suffers a Grapple penalty. The spell mentions the grapples check against a particular target. Does that mean that the Grapple check gets lowered if there are multiple targets?

 

[Dandu]

First, does my read/interpretation make sense, or am I reading too much into the "treat the tentacles as a Large creature with a Strength of 19" part?

How much of that would you allow?

I think you're reading too much into it. I wouldn't allow it.

Does that mean that the Grapple check gets lowered if there are multiple targets?

I don't think so.

 

[Grogg of the North]

First, does my read/interpretation make sense, or am I reading too much into the "treat the tentacles as a Large creature with a Strength of 19" part?

How much of that would you allow?

I've always thought that this was the designers explaining how they came to the grapple modifier more than anything else. Everyone at the table is obligated to make jokes that the spell gets a bonus versus uniformed school girls.

Next question: The spell is a Conjuration/Creation spell. The Augment Summoning feat increases the STR and CON of any summoned monsters by 4. Would that add to the Strength of the Tentacles?

No. Augment Summoning calls out any summoning spell you cast. Summon Monster has the (summoning) tag on it. Black Tentacles does not. Black tentacles do not have any stats other than its listed strength. Think of it this way, can Augment Summoning affect Wall of Iron? No.

Final question: When Grappling, a creature that doesn't give the Grapple its full attention suffers a Grapple penalty. The spell mentions the grapples check against a particular target. Does that mean that the Grapple check gets lowered if there are multiple targets?

No. There is a big field of tentacles waving about, each tentacle is whipping around trying to grab whatever it can that's within the field. I suppose you could make that argument for balance reasons but you would be nerfing the spell a lot.

 

[Greenfield]

Am I correct that the spell would function in an Anti-Magic field? The center point couldn't be targeted inside the field, naturally, but the tentacles could reach inside. And if the caster of the Anti-Magic effect were to move the fields to overlap with the Tentacles, they wouldn't suppressed.

It's a Conjuration/Creation type spell, so once the tentacles exist, they themselves aren't magical.

Same reasoning as spells like Acid Splash and the various Orb spells.

At least, that's the theory.

 

[Grogg of the North]

No, only instantaneous conjurations are immune to Antimagic Field; things like Wall of Iron. Black Tentacles has a duration listed in rounds per level, not instantaneous.

 

[Greenfield]

Duh! What was I thinking? Of course you're right.

If it can be dispelled, Anti-Magic can suppress it.

 

[Celebrim]

Your reading on this across the board seems highly suspect. What feats are you thinking of?

Side note, this spell as written is highly broken - one of the worst offenders in the game.

Any match between the size and reach of a tentacle and the area of effect of the spell is incidental. The current wording is the result of an evolutionary process to try to simplify and balance the spell. It does not create a single tentacle monster at the center of the spell. It does what it says; it creates a 'field' of tentacles. In 3.5 the details of this field are not specified (you can't kill the tentacles). The tentacles are neither 'creatures' nor 'objects' for the purposes of the rules that modify creatures or objects. They cannot be enlarged, reduced, or otherwise targeted by any spell that targets creatures or objects.

Augment Summoning does not apply. The subtype of the spell is 'creation' not 'summoning'. If the subtype is not 'summoning', the Feat cannot be used.

When grappling, each set of tentacles engaged with a particular target counts as a separate creature. There isn't actually a creature here to count, but it also can't 'divide its attention'. It has no attention; it has no initiative. It has no 'actions'. Not stated, but inferred, is that no matter how many tentacles engage with a particular target, the effect (grappling bonus, damage) is the same. This is a spell effect. Reading to much into it is unwise.

WIDEN SPELL: The field of tentacles is now a 40' radius spread. Each 5' square effectively has its own tentacle. More targets can be engaged over a wider area, but the effect remains the same. Damage is not increased. The tentacles don't get better at grappling just because their is more of them.

ENLARGE SPELL: Works as written.

EXTEND SPELL: Works as written.

EMPOWER SPELL: Random damage from the spell (1d6) is increased by 50% (1d6 * 1.5)

MAXIMIZE SPELL: Random damage from the spell (1d6) is maximized (to 6).

 

[Greenfield]

First note: Widen spell increases area by 50%. It doesn't double.

My "reading" was that I read what it said: To treat it as a Large creature with a BAB equal to the caster level, and a Strength of 19. It's not a creature. Widen wouldn't enlarge a Creature, only a spell. It simply says to treat it as a creature.

Now that 19 Strength is an odd number, and I'm not just talking numerically. No difference between an 18 and a 19 for spell or grapple effect, since we aren't worried about its carrying capacity, or how fast it can drag something, or whether it can lift something over its non-existent head. We see odd Strength scores in the MM, because ability scores are based on the "Standard Array" (three tens and three elevens), plus race and size modifiers. That suggests that the authors really were treating this as a true creature, thinking of that when they wrote/converted it.

Enlarge Monster would affect it if it was a Creature, but it isn't. No AC, no Hit points, no Saves, no stats other than Strength. An odd Strength.

If it was purely a spell though, it would describe the dice rolls a Saves, which it doesn't. Spells like Web and Entangle call for Reflex Saves, followed by Strength checks to escape. Not Tentacles though. It calls for Grapple or Escape Artist checks as opposed rolls. If they were Saves then Spell Focus would affect the checks, and it doesn't.

The damage it does is described as bludgeoning, but it never says if that damage is treated as "magic" or not, for purposes of overcoming DR. You can't use the standard measure for a creature, that if it has DR/Magic then it's attacks are "magic" for purposes of bypassing DR.

Empower Spell would affect the Grapple checks, since they are random aspects of the spell, but I agree with you that it doesn't and shouldn't. If we were purely treating it as a creature, it wouldn't affect the damage rolls, and I'm not really sure it should. Same reasoning as not applying that to the damage from a Summoned monster: It affects dice rolls for the spell itself, not the aftermath of the spell.

So what is it? Neither fish nor fowl, but a hybrid between a summoned monster and a spell effect. If you can't Enlarge the creature, I questioned if you could Enlarge (Widen in this case) the spell side of it, and if you did would it still be treated as a "creature" of the new size?

Was I looking to further break an already borderline spell? I don't know. I play a caster, but I also DM in the same game, so my POV is mixed.

I was as interested in the reasoning behind the answers as I was the answers themselves.

As for the spell being broken: It's a slow motion Fireball that does more damage, but allows the victim(s) to escape the damage every round of it's duration. The extra damage can be accounted for, balance wise, by the fact that it's a higher level spell. The lack of a Save or To Hit is balanced by the fact that it can be Dispelled or escaped. Neither Evasion nor a high AC help.

So again, neither fish nor fowl: It's unconventional, as spell mechanics go, but not really all that broken in effect.

 

[Celebrim]

As for the spell being broken: It's a slow motion Fireball that does more damage...

A fireball never steals actions. Who cares about the damage. This is one of the best battlefield control spells in the game.

This is a Slow the evades both saving throws and spell resistance AND which happens to do damage as a bonus. Aside from being a win button against anything with a low grapple check because it evades high touch AC that is normally a defense and it uses your class level rather than your BAB as a base, Black Tentacles potentially dominates the action economy more than a Time Stop. And in 3.5, since the tentacles no longer have hit points, you can cheerfully fireball whatever is stuck in the tentacles. Sure, it can be dispelled but a) that costs an action leaving you at best at a wash and b) if you fail your concentration check, that steals another action. And much like Stinking cloud, I can stand here and kill piecemeal whoever struggles out - and unlike Stinking cloud, it doesn't provide the target 100% concealment.

Who cares whether it does as much damage as a fireball (it certainly can, and quite quickly), the important thing is that I get to take more meaningful actions than the victim does.

First note: Widen spell increases area by 50%. It doesn't double.

Sorry. Going from memory. My bad.

My "reading" was that I read what it said...

I couldn't figure out what Feats you were trying to apply to this. Most of what you are musing about seems irrelevant to any feat I could think of.

That suggests that the authors really were treating this as a true creature, thinking of that when they wrote/converted it.

Reading the 3.0 SRD might provide some clarity.

If it was purely a spell though, it would describe the dice rolls a Saves, which it doesn't.

Nothing requires that a spell have a save mechanic.

The damage it does is described as bludgeoning, but it never says if that damage is treated as "magic" or not, for purposes of overcoming DR.

I would assume silence here is a 'no'.

 

[Greenfield]

Yes, it denies the opponent actions. So does Stinking Cloud (3rd level), Web (2nd level), Deep Slumber (3rd level), Entangle (1st level) and Sleep (1st level). Hold Person works (level varies) and Hold Monster (Level varies, but higher, with a consequently more difficult Save. Even the Cantrips Daze and Flare rob an opponent of actions, and Color Spray is the gift that keeps on taking: Unconscious, stunned and blind, in that order.

Hold Person, Sleep and Deep Slumber are actually death spells, since you can Coup de Gras the opponent, something you can't do with Tentacles.

The various Wall spells can be used to effectively deny opponents actions by separating them from the conflict. The "Divide" part of "Divide and Conquer". They have to spend actions getting past the Wall, or if they can't then they're effectively defeated, out of the battle until you're ready to deal with them.

And why doesn't Touch AC count as a defense? Last time I looked, Grapples required a successful touch attack before any Grapple checks are rolled.

Admitted, touch attacks are usually so easy most people hand-wave that part, but bad dice happen, as do Monks.

Lots of neat battlefield control spells that deny opponents their actions. Some people get into the "you have to do damage to win" mind set, and reflexively think of tactical and control spells as "cheating" somehow. They aren't, they're what happens when PCs graduate kindergarden.

(Horrible thought: Kender Garden <shudders>)