D&D 5E Is the Wild magic Sorcerer as terrible as it seems?

[CapnZapp]

I love the wild mage. I've played one, and I've DMed for some. When I DM, I rework the chance of a surge so that the number you have to get on the d20 isn't just 1 all the time but is a number equal to or less than the level of the spell slot used to cast the spell (eg. if you cast a 7th level spell - or a lower level spell using a 7th level spell slot - then when you roll your d20, you get a surge on a roll of 1-7).

I'm happy for you, but just to make sure - you are aware you're talking about the class feature "Wild Magic Surge" now?

That really doesn't help the Wild Mage's power, only her coolness/wackiness factor.

This thread is about whether Wild Mages gain something comparable to all the goodies bestowed upon Draconic Sorcerers. The main such thing would be advantage on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws. Or, in other words, another class feature than "Wild Magic Surge", specifically the "Tides of Chaos" feature.

My argument is that for a Wild Mage to compete against a Draconic colleague, she needs to use Tides of Chaos once for every spell she casts. That's right, if the sorcerer has, say, 15 spell slots, she has the capacity to gain advantage sixteen* times during the day, and she needs to use every single one of them.
*) not counting various other ways to cast more spells, such as Sorcery Points

But Tides of Chaos state once per long rest...? Yes, but it also empowers the Dungeon Master to have you Wild Surge after casting a spell. And this is the core of the trap.

This is sufficuently hidden so many players don't realize they need to make sure their DM is onboard before choosing the subclass. And that many Wild Surges goes against the instincts of many DMs. The end result is that yes, it is likely the Wild Mage is "as terrible as it seems", even though many posters might post anectdotal experiences to the contrary.

Only play a Wild Mage if you and your DM are prepared for a deluge of Wild Surges. To justify not choosing Draconic and its juicy subclass features you really need to operate on advantage throughout the day. Your every skill check should be done at advantage. Ideally your every save. Even better if you could attack at advantage, but there simply aren't enough spells with attack rolls to make that strategy worthwhile. (In fact, are there ANY spell that allows you a decent effect with a single attack roll. Both main contenders Scorching Ray and Eldritch Blast (for Sorlocks) use multiple attack rolls)

In the end, once you and your DM are up to speed on this crucial fact, it ceases to be an issue (obviously).

 

[CapnZapp]

Still, my conclusion is that the Wild Mage subclass is underdeveloped. My recommendation is to hold off playing the subclass until such time WotC offers more actual Wild Mage specific support.

What I specifically would like to see are two things:

A) spells that operate on a single attack roll. (That is, more Firebolt than Eldritch Blast) Three spells nicely spread out over the spell levels would do nicely.
1) A first level spell could do middling damage, but with strong uplevelling capabilities. Thus providing a good go-to spell throughout the Sorcerer's career.
2+3) the other spells can be more circumstantial. I'm fully aware of the extreme pressure on poor Sorcerers for their spell selections, so only 1 would be a staple. These spells could cause more than damage.

B) Then I would like to see a small selection of "wild" spells; that is spells that are generally too wild and unpredictable to be of general use, but where a Wild Mage can key his abilities to harness the spell. Just one idea would be a spell requiring some kind of save that for most spellcasters result in a 50-50 chance. A Wild Mage, however, could use advantage to turn that into a 75-25 chance. The idea here is that in a future update, Wild Mages would be allowed a small selection of free spells, provided they are labelled "wild". One existing spell that could be retrofitted as a wild spell is Confusion, assuming the Wild Mage gains some modicum of control over the otherwise random effect.


This is all examples only. I'm just trying to paint you a picture of where I see the current design falls short, and why I won't be playing the Wild Mage anytime soon.

 

[transtemporal]

Everything else is a bit meh but as Hemlock said, that one Bend Luck ability is incredibly powerful.

 

[Wepwawet]

Everything else is a bit meh but as Hemlock said, that one Bend Luck ability is incredibly powerful.

Bend Luck? You mean, spending 2 sorcery points to give a creature -1d4? Seems like a waste of sorc. points, but I want to believe you. Is it that powerful?

It's true, wild surges are dependent on the DM. I played a Wild Sorcerer for 3 levels, and my DM wasn't too keen on the random effects, I guess he was worried about me casting a fireball.

I then talked to him and explained that I needed that to work, and that there are slightly more positive effects than negative in the table (I counted them). Still, I only got to do it once before I left the group... But yeah, tell your DM that they need those surges. And at 7th level you'll survive anything nasty that may happen (which is not that probable)

Rolling a 1 to trigger it is extremelly rare (I never managed it). I like @pukunui 's idea of linking it to the spell level.

But @CapnZapp is right, to make them effective they should recharge Tides of Chaos often. You could make up a system to increase the chance of triggering wild surges, but it makes the game quicker and simpler to always trigger one when you cast a non-cantrip after using Tides of Chaos.

 

[CapnZapp]

I then talked to him and explained that I needed that to work

This is the entire issue, boiled down to the basics.

That these discussions tend to happen AFTER the class choice has been made. Most people would think it much less painful if they could have this kind of discussion BEFORE the class choice is made.

The PHB would have been infinitely more helpful if it clearly helped DMs and players realize what the stakes are and what the class relies on to work. The PHb is usually great when it comes to spelling out what a class is and does, and what is expected of it. Not so with the Wild Mage.

Player: "Okay, so you're not comfortable with a Wild Mage spewing Surges out her ears?"
DM: "No"
Player: "That's completely fine. No problem. In completely unrelated news, I'll choose Draconic for this game."
DM: "Great, everybody's happy"

 

[zaratan]

the only giant mistake was the Wizard write "DM can have you roll"... if was written "every time..., roll in Wild Magic Surge", than Wild sorcerer would work as it should and would be one of most fun subclass of all.

 

[CapnZapp]

the only giant mistake was the Wizard write "DM can have you roll"... if was written "every time..., roll in Wild Magic Surge", than Wild sorcerer would work as it should and would be one of most fun subclass of all.

Well... no, I wouldn't say it was that simple.

Namely, I understand why that bit is there - WotC was aware there was at least some players vocally against having to play with wild surges. I can't really argue against that position. Bringing along a Wild Mage is inherently much more risky than any other character class. You can't depend on an ally that could turn into a flower pot at any key moment. And having a TPK even once because the Wild Mage dropped a Fireball on himself is not what everybody considers good clean fun.

So.

Their solution - to do it optional (or, more specifically "DM approved") isn't wrong per se.

It's how they did it optional (or, more specifically, what they made optional) that is the big mistake.

Either they would have had to make it much more clear that a Wild Mage without Tides of Chaos, and lots of them, is a neutered Wild Mage (a Wild Mage operating below maximum potential)...

... or they should have made the entire subclass optional, rather than just one (key) aspect of it.

Both these suggestions would solve the problem without "forcing" Wild Mages upon those DMs that are dead set against them. In the first case, both player and DM would go into an agreement to play a Surge-less Wild Mage with open eyes (perhaps gaining freebies elsewhere). In the second, the DM would have to choose between either no Wild Mage or a good one (or, as I'm sure some of you think "either no Wild Mage or an obnoxiously disruptive one").

 

[zaratan]

Well... no, I wouldn't say it was that simple.

Namely, I understand why that bit is there - WotC was aware there was at least some players vocally against having to play with wild surges. I can't really argue against that position. Bringing along a Wild Mage is inherently much more risky than any other character class. You can't depend on an ally that could turn into a flower pot at any key moment. And having a TPK even once because the Wild Mage dropped a Fireball on himself is not what everybody considers good clean fun.

So.

Their solution - to do it optional (or, more specifically "DM approved") isn't wrong per se.

It's how they did it optional (or, more specifically, what they made optional) that is the big mistake.

Either they would have had to make it much more clear that a Wild Mage without Tides of Chaos, and lots of them, is a neutered Wild Mage (a Wild Mage operating below maximum potential)...

... or they should have made the entire subclass optional, rather than just one (key) aspect of it.

Both these suggestions would solve the problem without "forcing" Wild Mages upon those DMs that are dead set against them. In the first case, both player and DM would go into an agreement to play a Surge-less Wild Mage with open eyes (perhaps gaining freebies elsewhere). In the second, the DM would have to choose between either no Wild Mage or a good one (or, as I'm sure some of you think "either no Wild Mage or an obnoxiously disruptive one").

In fact, you're right. I think what many DMs miss is common sense, don't know if is because d&d since lasts edition start to be very mecanical.

 

[Guest 6801328]

A fun fix is to keep an extra d20 as a counter, starting with 1.

Each time the Sorcerer casts a spell that uses a slot roll a d20:
- if it's equal to or less than the counter die, a Wild Surge happens
- if it's not, increase the counter by 1 (or by the spell slot used, if you really want to go nuts)

EDIT: Or the threshold is simply the spell slot you used. Level 9 spell? 9/20 chance of triggering a surge!

 

[MrHotter]

I would like to see a UA article with an alternate version of the Wild Magic Sorc that makes it easier to figure out when a surge happens.

I'm not sure of the best way to do it, but my idea was to have a surge happen when the sorc casts a level 1 or higher spell with an attack roll and gets a natural 20, and also when he casts a level 1 or higher spell with a saving throw and the first save roll (if there are multiple targets) is a natural 20. That would make a crit more exciting and could make a failed spell into something interesting.