Judgement calls vs "railroading"

There are other metrics for making decisions besides "impartial adjudication" that aren't railroading. Here are some examples:

  • What would be more fun?
  • What would interest the particular players who are losing focus?
  • What would tie this detail to a dangling plot thread?
  • What would tie this detail more firmly into the game world?
  • What would adjust the energy level at the table in the preferred direction?
  • What would set the desired tone of the scene?
  • What would tie this detail to a PC's backstory?
  • What would help distribute spotlight time more evenly?
  • What would prompt an under-used skill check?
None of these are impartial, and all of them involve personal preference (or at least, personal style). And yet none of them involve railroading.
If the DM is choosing the outcome based on their own personal preference, rather than their honest interpretation of the underlying reality, then it is very much still railroading. If the DM makes something happen, because they want to change the tone of the scene or share the spotlight, then that is railroading - they are making something happen because they want it to happen, without regard for their responsibility as the impartial adjudicator!

Perhaps you mean to say that some railroading can be a good thing, and wish to present these as examples? If so, then I can only say that you have a preference for certain types of railroading, which is not universally shared. If a DM tried those kinds of shenanigans around these parts, then they would quickly find themselves without a group.
 

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There is no way to play D&D that doesn't contain rails. The good DM's hide the rails. The bad ones allow them to stand out apparent. Some may even have multiple rail lines open at all the times but the PC's still must get off their current train at the next station and get on the next.

Just because you are on rails doesn't mean you can't move along the train from car to car or stop at the next station and get off the 2:30 train to Yuma and hop on the Midnight train to Yuma. Same destination but slightly different train and details.

I think that once you define 'railroading' as any campaign that has multiple choice options, you've probably reversed what most people think of when talking about railroading. And I don't feel that's a useful definition.

For example, in my Call of Cthulhu campaign I had a plot thought out, with multiple ideas of how it could possibly end, depending on the choices of the players. Certain events would always happen, because as a DM I occasionally move the plot forward. But within this setting, the players were free to hunt for clues, decide where they want to go next, and they could succeed or fail in their quest miserably. Any npc could die, none of them had plot armor. Any event could be stopped by the players without disrupting the course of the plot.

And yet I didn't railroad when I ran this campaign. Just because your campaign has a plot and a direction, does not mean that the players are on a rail. When I think of "railroading", I think of a DM blocking what a player wants to do, because it is not in the script. That is railroading in my book.

For example, if the players are about to be arrested by the guards, and they get arrested no matter what, against all logic and reason. And are then taken to what ever important plot location or npc that the plot desires. That is my definition of railroading. Or a player always getting caught when sneaking, regardless of how stealthy his character behaves. Railroading is a disruptive act where the DM blocks player action, to force them and the plot on a linear path.

Having branching paths in your storyline is not railroading, unless it involves the above disruptive action.
 
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transtemporal

Explorer
If the DM is choosing the outcome based on their own personal preference, rather than their honest interpretation of the underlying reality, then it is very much still railroading. If the DM makes something happen, because they want to change the tone of the scene or share the spotlight, then that is railroading - they are making something happen because they want it to happen, without regard for their responsibility as the impartial adjudicator!

Then surely any adventure hook is railroading because the DM is forcing something to happen at a particular point in time that might not happen in the normal course of events?

It seems like in the maximum-verisimilitude campaign, nothing happens because the apocalypse realistically has a 1-in-a-million chance of occurring in the PCs lifetime. Or if it does happen, the PCs don't stop it because in their player-driven, impartially-adjudicated sandbox campaign, they were more interested in running a mine or opening an inn.
 
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pemerton

Legend
The vessel definitely existed within the room (or did not exist within the room) before you-as-the-DM became aware of it
Agreed: in the fiction there either is a vessel or is not. No one is creating one at that moment.

there was no higher authority that you could have consulted in order to find out the truth of the matter. The only possible sources that you could consult are your unbiased determination of what should be there, and your biased determination of what you want to be there.
Well, there seems to be at least one more source, because in my game we were able to settle the question without doing either of the things you describe. I set a DC for the Perception check and then the player rolled the dice.
 

pemerton

Legend
The only "GMing crime" you're committing here is possibly making your railroading too obvious. The point at which you stubbornly dig your heels in for no logical reason is the point the players can see the metamachinery of the gameworld which may not be a good thing.
I don't get what this is referring to. What "digging in" are you referring to? And what is the "metamachinery" that you refer to?

It might be getting close to railroading just by deciding there is a chance there isn't a vessel in the room. Its a bedroom inhabited by a humanoid. Logically there is a container of some kind, or someone is carrying a container that can hold liquid.
I don't follow this either. My bedroom is inhabited by a humanoid (me). But typically it does not have any containers or vessels in it. (Unless you count shoes. But that's still not a matter of logic. There have only been shoes in my bedroom for the last couple of years since I ran out of room on the shoe rack downstairs.)
 

Then surely any adventure hook is railroading because the DM is forcing something to happen at a particular point in time that might not happen in the normal course of events?
It depends on when that hook happens. If it happens before the game, then it's just part of the premise. When you start a campaign with the relevant events already set into motion, then carrying out those events faithfully is simply being true to that premise. One of the tenets of good world-building is to design a setting which is conducive to interesting things happening, specifically so you don't need to contrive anything later on in order to keep things moving.

If you try to hook someone after the game starts, so that the contrived coincidence is not part of the premise you're exploring, then that is railroading. It's the difference between choosing to play the campaign where Waterdeep is under attack from Tiamat (or whatever), and Tiamat conveniently showing up to Waterdeep whenever the party gets there. If you want to contrive a coincidence, then it needs to happen before the game starts.

It's kind of like judging a movie or book based on its own merits, depending on how well it follows its premise. Your choice in which story you want to see has no bearing on how well that story is executed.
 

pemerton

Legend
I think what constitutes railroading is simply the PCs actions having no impact on the next step of the adventure. If the party finds of split in the trail in the forest but the DM decides they run into the Old Witch regardless of which direction they choose, that's railroading.
There is the important caveat that the choice in question had to be a significant one. If the party chose a particular fork in the hope of avoiding the witch, then having them encounter her regardless could be railroading. But if the choice of path was utterly arbitrary in the first place, placing the witch on the chosen path doesn't frustrate the party's choice. In other words, if the players weren't trying to have an "impact on the next step of the adventure" at that moment then it isn't railroading to prevent them from having one.
Reynard refers to "PCs". Xetheral refers to "players". I think Xetheral has the right reference, in the context of a discussion about railroading.

We're not talking about the (imagined) causal powers of the (imagined) PCs in the (imagined) gameworld. We're talking about the actual causal powers of actual people - the players - who are sitting at the gaming table.

In my OP I said "By railroading I mean the GM shaping outcomes to fit a pre-conceived narrative." Is an utterly random or unmotivated choice an outcome? I tend to agree with Xetheral that it's not. It follows that "We go left" or "We go right", in a context where - from the players' perspective - there is nothing at stake in the choice is not an event of action declaration, any more than "My boots are frilly" is an action declaration. It's just colour and performance.

if a party is exploring a dungeon they haven't scouted and have no knowledge of, and are thus deciding which hallway to take at random, it isn't railroading to use a mirror image layout of dungeon instead of the original, since which way the party went was chance anyway.
I am going to disagree with this, but it may be a disagreement that you (Xetheral) agree with!

In a classic Gyagxian dungeon, although the players may not have any knowledge of the dungeon, they have the possibility of having knowledge (eg by rumour gathering, scrying/detecting magic, etc). Failure to use that capacity, in the context of Gygaxian dungeoneering, is just a mark of poor play. So at least in a Gygaxian game, changing the dungeon might be shaping an outcome and hence (in my view) railroading.

One of the differences between the Gygaxian dungeon case and the "witch down the forest path" case is that D&D has rarely supported the same sort of information gathering etc in the context of outdoors adventuring (eg due to spell ranges, different conventions around how wildernesses are "stocked" with encounters, etc; I think this is why Luke Crane refers to "the poorly implemented ideas of the Expert set" in comparison to Moldvay Basic). Thus it's much harder for me to envisage a context in which choosing to have the witch at the end of an arbitrarily chosen forest path would count as railroading.

There is no way to play D&D that doesn't contain rails. The good DM's hide the rails.
I don't think this is true at all. If someone runs White Plume Mountain or Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan as originally conceived and presented, where are the rails? The module parameters are all set in advance; the players make their choices; a mixture of GM judgement call and the outcomes of the dice rolls tell the players whether their PCs live or die.

Or to point to a completely different style of game, I don't think my 4e games have any "rails". Eg in this session, the PCs reached an understanding with the djinni and Yan-C-Bin, then established powerful evidence that the Dusk War is not about to take place. I didn't know these things were going to take place until the players declared actions for their PCs and we resolved them.

I also don't see why a GM would "hide the rails". Or, more generally, why would a GM hide his/her techniques? In the session I referred to, the PCs track their lost Thundercloud Tower to Yan-C-Bin's palace on the Elemental Chaos. There is no mystery among the players as to why I've made this choice as to where the tower is located: they know that one of the PCs is sworn to the service of Chan, Queen of Good Air Elementals and hence sworn enemy of Yan-C-Bin, who has already tried to tempt that PC to change loyalties; they know that another PC has just recently taken on the mantle of god of imprisonment, and hence has a special interest in ensuring that bound primordials don't escape; etc.

So why would I want the players not to know my reasons for making this choice? I want them to be fully aware of them, so that they see the full scope for engaging the situation via their PCs. The context that informs my choice is what gives the outcomes dramatic significance.
 
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pemerton

Legend
[MENTION=42582]Micro-railroading, as in whether there's a cup in the room or not: who bloody cares?
Well, in a context where the PC's main goal is to deliver the blood of the decapitated mage to his dark naga master, so that it can be spilled as part of a ritual to bind the spirits to the naga's service, it could be pretty important!

I'm not the one at the table who raised the question - the player did, because of that PC goal. So it actually turned out to be quite important - and the fact that the PC is carrying a chamber pot and a jug full of blood, and with the decapitated head also sitting in the chamber pot, also turned out to inform subsequent play.

Is there something wrong with making judgment calls? The way you're referring to them, they seem suspect
I don't think there's anything wrong with making judgement calls. I don't think they're any more suspect, nor any less, than other GM decisions that influence the outcome of action resolution.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
So my questions are:

1) Do you think this "must not reveal the Wizard behind the curtain"/covert nature of the GM's techniques leads to an inherent aversion to system/technique/play anecdote analysis?
I don't even know what this means, so...no answer. :)

2) Do you think this leads to a "system doesn't matter" perspective on games?
I don't think so. Whether or not there's a railroad, an illusion, or neither does not depend on system; and people will still have their system preferences thus yes, system still matters.

3) Do you think this leads to an aversion of resolution mechanics clarity, transparency, or codificaion?
That might be a table-by-table thing and again might not have a direct correlation with the presence or absence of a railroad or an illusion.

4) Do you think this leads to an aversion of player authority within PC build mechanics (eg - I have this ability that just says this happen...you get no say GM)?
This one might have a correlation, in that a DM running the illusion style is probably a bit more controlling than one who is not. But note that I say 'probably'; as I don't think the correlation is always present.

==================================

Saelorn said:
Perhaps you mean to say that some railroading can be a good thing, and wish to present these as examples? If so, then I can only say that you have a preference for certain types of railroading, which is not universally shared. If a DM tried those kinds of shenanigans around these parts, then they would quickly find themselves without a group.
But what if you don't even realize it's happening?

It depends on when that hook happens. If it happens before the game, then it's just part of the premise. When you start a campaign with the relevant events already set into motion, then carrying out those events faithfully is simply being true to that premise. One of the tenets of good world-building is to design a setting which is conducive to interesting things happening, specifically so you don't need to contrive anything later on in order to keep things moving.

If you try to hook someone after the game starts, so that the contrived coincidence is not part of the premise you're exploring, then that is railroading. It's the difference between choosing to play the campaign where Waterdeep is under attack from Tiamat (or whatever), and Tiamat conveniently showing up to Waterdeep whenever the party gets there. If you want to contrive a coincidence, then it needs to happen before the game starts.
What reading this tells me is that a DM who doesn't plan things out in advance and maybe even makes it all up as she goes along - perhaps with the specific intention of leaving herself able to react to what the party do in order to give a more interesting game for the players - is by your definitions always going to be railroading in the negative way. Seems a bit over-the-top.

You state "One of the tenets of good world-building is to design a setting which is conducive to interesting things happening", with which I agree. But the unspoken part of that would logically go on to say something like "and it really helps game play if those interesting things tend to happen when the PCs are around to notice and-or interact with them, rather than always happening somewhere else.".

Further, it's close to impossible to contrive a coincidence before the game starts unless it's intended to happen in the first session. Let's say your idea is to plan a coincidence that in two years (i.e. time enough for the party to gain levels enough to deal with this) on midwinter's night they will see what looks like a meteorite crash into the side of Mount Steepsides, and if they follow it up you'll run them into Expedition to the Barrier Peaks - but tell me, at campaign start do you as DM have any idea where your party will be on midwinter's night two game-years hence and will they even be on the same continent/world/plane as Mount Steepsides?

No. That meteorite is gonna crash into whatever mountain the party can see at the time, and if they're nowhere near any mountains on midwinter's night it'll stay in orbit for a few days/weeks/months until they are.

The other option is to leave it baked in as is: the meteorite hits Mount Steepsides on midwinter's night no matter what, and half a year later when the party wander by again all they hear is "Oh yeah, something crashed into the mountain last winter. Too bad you guys weren't here - I heard the group that went up to investigate made a fortune at it!" Yeah, how much fun is that? :)

Lanefan
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Well, in a context where the PC's main goal is to deliver the blood of the decapitated mage to his dark naga master, so that it can be spilled as part of a ritual to bind the spirits to the naga's service, it could be pretty important!
Then the characters need to think of something else quickly - like grabbing one of the many cloth items that are guaranteed to be in the room (if nothing else, a large shred of their own clothing would do), soak it full of the blood, fold it up and put it on something hard like the back of a shield. The naga then just has to wring out the cloth later and...look at that! Blood!

Taking the head is a fail-safe: carry the head upside-down, then later if there's not enough blood in the cloth the naga can tip the head upright and see what comes out.

I'm not the one at the table who raised the question - the player did, because of that PC goal. So it actually turned out to be quite important - and the fact that the PC is carrying a chamber pot and a jug full of blood, and with the decapitated head also sitting in the chamber pot, also turned out to inform subsequent play.
I still don't see how anything this minor (even though important in context) gets into railroading territory at all. There's a container, or there isn't; and if you-as-DM haven't determined that ahead of time (I know I wouldn't have!) then you just have to wing it. Seems the opposite of railroading to me; railroading would more indicate you'd either predetermined there was no container for reasons of your own, or predetermined there was a container and then tried to influence or force the PC to use it.

Lan-"were it me, I'd be wondering why I'm working for a dark naga in the first place instead of trying to kill it"-efan
 

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