Why does fantasy dominate RPGs?

[Tony Vargas]

It has that. But it had that when TSR nearly went bankrupt, and when 4E basically tanked, and all these decades latter when its a huge success with people who don't know anything about those things.

Doesn't really matter, nothing different stepped into the RPG place or into the mainstream. LARPing came closest as TSR failed, but TSR was a business failure, it made no difference to how people approached the hobby that D&D went from TSR to WotC or that it changed editions - people tried D&D, if they weren't into it's brand of fantasy, they might be repelled from the hobby, even in the case of 4e which did away with many of D&D's weirder, less-new-player-friendly bugaboos and sacred cows. At the moment, 5e is doing relatively well (relative to expectations). New players may not be aware of why D&D made it into the mainstream consciousness, they're just aware that people play it, and a lot less likely to be aware of any other TTRPG.

Think like this, whats the #2 game? D&D with a different name.

The name is good, but its not just the name.

That's rather the point. D&D is the gateway to the hobby, if you don't care for D&D, you're less likely to stick with the hobby, if you do, you're likely to gravitate towards similar games, too.

Though did Traveller ever do as well as D&D? Even in the golden age of Traveller? And I don't mean just in sales, but also number of tables played in any given week? OK I know no one could possibly have good numbers on the later, except for maybe convention schedules.

I don't believe it ever came anywhere near, no. Never made the news or anything, never impinged on mainstream consciousness. I picked it because it was 1) sci-fi and 2) a very close contemporary to 0D&D.

 

[tomBitonti]

So .. do supernatural shows count as fantasy? Bewitched, I Dream of Genie; Buffy, Angel, Charmed; Constantine, Warehouse 13, Shadowhunters, Dresden Files? Dark Shadows and Night Stalker? And The previously mentioned Hercules and Xena.

These are not D&D fantasy, mostly, but they are certainly fantasy.

Thx!
TomB

 

[GMMichael]

Many sci-fi shows have a derelict space ship episode. That's basically a dungeon crawl. Aliens was a dungeon crawl. The scene in Han Solo's other ship in The Force Awakens is a dungeon crawl. The Reaver ship in Firefly was a dungeon crawl.

I beg to differ! Aliens had some significant elements that the typical dungeon-crawl does not: character development, dialogue, no treasure, intelligent opponents, and a [SPOILER ALERT!] boss fight that occurs outside the dungeon.

You get my vote for most typo-free post, though.

We can expect a rebound in medieval fantasy's popularity over sci-fi, by the way, thanks to the US's current War on Science.

 

[Ratskinner]

But that's the thing. If that were the reason, surely fantasy would also dominate TV and movies? The question is why RPGs and TV/movies are reversed?

I think it has to do with the participatory/indentification aspect. Watching a character and playing one at table are different, even if we might call both processes "identifying with" the character. TV/movies are often called "passive" media, while rpg-ing (I would think) is not so much.

With SciFi heroes, much though we may love to watch them, we don't really want (as much) to be them. In part, I think this is because their lives generally stink in ways we recognize too keenly. (I mean really, how much actual "Speculative Fiction" is based on "Hey look how great things would be if X" vs. "OMG! If X then the world as we know it is doomed!") We know that we don't want to get shot at, or forced out of our jobs by automation, or infected with super-viruses, or live in a post-apocalypse or whatever. That's why there's a lot of crossover between scifi and horror. Additionally, you've got all the weird "fridge-logic" problems of sci-fi. I mean, the general "schtick" of scifi is to propose a new discovery/technology/something than you layer onto our base understanding of the world. That kind of thing can be hard to make into a repeatably fun rpg experience. Even Star Trek has problems pulling it off at table. Plus, law enforcement, etc. obviate the need for the typical hero to get all that involved.

Fantasy, on the other hand, is different. Who doesn't want to be the mighty warrior or powerful wizard? We sweep all the suffering and problems of a quasi-medieval/iron-age society out of mind. Disease, starvation, and filth are problems for orcs, not our heroes. I think that's easier, because we aren't so used to them. Similarly, characters in a fantasy 'verse are more likely to be able to heed the call to adventure without running afoul of the law.

Anyway, that's my $.02, hope it was worth the read. Good question, though.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

So .. do supernatural shows count as fantasy? Bewitched, I Dream of Genie; Buffy, Angel, Charmed; Constantine, Warehouse 13, Shadowhunters, Dresden Files? Dark Shadows and Night Stalker? And The previously mentioned Hercules and Xena.

These are not D&D fantasy, mostly, but they are certainly fantasy.

Thx!
TomB

I do count those as fantasy or or fantasy/horror, but I'll note that several in that list were very short lived. And we could add Forever Knight, Friday the 13th: the Series, Grimm, Special Unit 2, Life on Mars, Ashes to Ashes, Kindred: the Embraced, Apparitions, Sea of Souls, The Fades, The Magicians, Narnia and more besides.

But if I wanted, I could look up Fox's programming list before X-Files became a hit. They tried to make Friday night into sci-fi Fridays, and cycled through a dozen or so before they got it right. And I didn't mention Metropolis, War of the Worlds (and other Wells/Verne adaptations), Westworld, First Men in the Moon, Sliders, Space 1999, Logan's Run (movie & series), Buck Rodgers (movies & series), Blake's 7, Survivors, Mad Max (etc.), 5th Element, Armageddon, Deep Impact, 2 versions of The Day The Earth Stood Still, The Lexx, Space: Above & Beyond, 2001: a Space Odyssey, Dune, or Starship Troopers. Plus there's the Firefly, Farscape, Alien & Stargate franchises.

And don't forget, some shows had multiple incarnations, like The Outer Limits and The Twilight Zone.

I'd be surprised if SF movies & tv shows didn't outnumber fantasy ones close to 2:1, and possibly have as much as 3-4x as many total hours of runtime. (Though, admittedly, non-Western cinema & TV like Anime could very well prove me wrong.)

 

[tomBitonti]

I do count those as fantasy or or fantasy/horror, but I'll note that several in that list were very short lived. And we could add Forever Knight, Friday the 13th: the Series, Grimm, Special Unit 2, Life on Mars, Ashes to Ashes, Kindred: the Embraced, Apparitions, Sea of Souls, The Fades, The Magicians, Narnia and more besides.

But if I wanted, I could look up Fox's programming list before X-Files became a hit. They tried to make Friday night into sci-fi Fridays, and cycled through a dozen or so before they got it right. And I didn't mention Metropolis, War of the Worlds (and other Wells/Verne adaptations), Westworld, First Men in the Moon, Sliders, Space 1999, Logan's Run (movie & series), Buck Rodgers (movies & series), Blake's 7, Survivors, Mad Max (etc.), 5th Element, Armageddon, Deep Impact, 2 versions of The Day The Earth Stood Still, The Lexx, Space: Above & Beyond, 2001: a Space Odyssey, Dune, or Starship Troopers. Plus there's the Firefly, Farscape, Alien & Stargate franchises.

And don't forget, some shows had multiple incarnations, like The Outer Limits and The Twilight Zone.

I'd be surprised if SF movies & tv shows didn't outnumber fantasy ones close to 2:1, and possibly have as much as 3-4x as many total hours of runtime. (Though, admittedly, non-Western cinema & TV like Anime could very well prove me wrong.)

Nod. I just wanted to give fantasy a fair representation. (I did expect to be called out on The Walking Dead.)

Should we put non fantastic stories which are set in a non-modern setting (say, Robin Hood, or much of Game of Thrones)?

Something that I find curious is that two of the most popular sci-fi examples (Star Wars and Avatar) mix both sci-fi and fantasy. Also which did X-Files and The Twilight Zone.

Thx!
TomB

 

[TerraDave]

Historically, sci-fi & sci-fant has it all over fantasy for TV & movies.

BIG LIST

My point was just that when fantasy is taken seriously, it does well. Want another example? All those Disney movies. Beauty and the Beast, another huge recent money maker.

BUT, in terms of your list. A few things.

1. We are a bunch of oldsters. Seriously, not one but two exchanges in this thread about the culture of the early Reagan years.

2. Part of this is definitional. Sci-fi seems broadly defined (again, see star wars), well beyond classic hard sci-fi, and fantasy quite narrowly. Almost all modern day action-adventure builds off of fantasy archetypes and story structure. (and is totally fantastic in what happens).

3. Obviously TV and Film producers are more comfortable with light sci-fi elements. In terms of supply, you are right. I am not always seeing the demand. Again, in the last decade I am having a hard time thinking of that huge sci-fi TV show. Or a new sci-fi movie franchise. Did I miss one?

 

[TerraDave]

Doesn't really matter, nothing different stepped into the RPG place or into the mainstream. ...

Yes, we agree. D&D has dominated. And while some people here seem offended by this fact, it is bringing in more new players right now then it has in at least 15 years.

But I think you are saying that D&D is the entry game because it is. And nothing could displace it, because.

I think it might have maintained that position because it works better as a relatively mainstream RPG then the alternatives. If it didn't, over all these decades, something else probably would have come along to take its place.

 

[S'mon]

SF games tend to lack a default "tentpole activity" to fall back on. Star Wars has shoot-the-stormtroopers, and Cyberpunk has the dungeon-delve like Run or Raid, but SF and most other genres seem to lack D&D's plug & play characteristics that make it so easy to GM. Running Classic D&D I can very easily generate an adventure with a few random tables, I don't see that in SF.

 

[tomBitonti]

My point was just that when fantasy is taken seriously, it does well. Want another example? All those Disney movies. Beauty and the Beast, another huge recent money maker.

BUT, in terms of your list. A few things.

1. We are a bunch of oldsters. Seriously, not one but two exchanges in this thread about the culture of the early Reagan years.

2. Part of this is definitional. Sci-fi seems broadly defined (again, see star wars), well beyond classic hard sci-fi, and fantasy quite narrowly. Almost all modern day action-adventure builds off of fantasy archetypes and story structure. (and is totally fantastic in what happens).

3. Obviously TV and Film producers are more comfortable with light sci-fi elements. In terms of supply, you are right. I am not always seeing the demand. Again, in the last decade I am having a hard time thinking of that huge sci-fi TV show. Or a new sci-fi movie franchise. Did I miss one?

Haha to 1. That is spot on for me.

Re: 3. Where would you place The Walking Dead? That is huge -- I'm thinking it is currently the #1 show. It's set in the modern era, but has folks reduced to a very narrow, nearly medieval, mode. (Why haven't folks setup some generators, or solar cells? Do folks in the frozen north need to deal with zombies in the winter? Do zombies freeze?) Does its placement as a post-apocalyptic story make it sci-fi? Or is it fantasy because it has zombies? Sci-fi zombies perhaps, because the cause is a plague. But, that is pretty thin, and fantasy zombies could be caused by a plague, too.

Does the recent batch of superhero movies count as sci-fi? Not really new content, but a new mode of presentation.

Thx!
TomB