D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

[cbwjm]

Pretty sure Greyhawk was the default for 3e.

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[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Caliban]

... Didn't 3E have Living Greyhawk? I mean I'll be honest, I do forget when 3E stopped and 3.5E started, but I know one of them had it

Yes. Living Greyhawk came about with the advent of 3rd edition. After the change to 3.5 they started focusing on Living Eberron (or whatever they called it - I didn't play it much) and eventually ended Living Greyhawk.

 

[Maxperson]

There's a key problem with this whole post. Elminster didn't do anything. NPCs don't get high-level by adventuring; they get high-level by someone writing a number in a field. I see nowhere it says they have to have an adventuring backstory, and one of the 20th level characters in ECS was 11 years old, so it's not something Wizards always followed.

This is objectively wrong. I've read the novels where he did stuff. I've read portions of the Realms lore where he did stuff. It may not have been played out, but he did in fact adventure and gain levels that way. Stretch your imagination a bit.

And the point of all this is that some people don't like settings that feel like they're all about other people's characters. Your perception that there must be a certain number of high-level characters in a setting is wrong; there are many settings that don't have them, whether or not you find that realistic.

Show me one. So far you've only shown a couple that had only a few of them written down, but it still had them. Show me one that not only has no NPC of 15th level or higher written down, but says that none exist.

 

[Maxperson]

See, to me, this is very much a Forgotten Realms perspective. 8th level isn't high enough? To me, that's a setting I'm not interested in. If I need to be 15th level before I'm famous (and every famous person around is 15th level), that's too high powered a setting for me.

And Dark Sun, and Greyhawk, and despite your claims Dragonlance and Eberron (they have enough of them), and Mystara, and Planescape, and Birthright, and Al Qadim, and Spelljammer, and every other D&D setting I've seen.

I haven't seen Scarred Lands and Primeval Thule, but I'm skeptical that they will be any different.

 

[Maxperson]

Pretty sure Greyhawk was the default for 3e.

Greyhawk for 3e amounted to little more than the gods and a few named spells until the very, very small number of supplements were released. While they may have paid lip service to Greyhawk being the default, in practice it wasn't even close. The Realms dwarfed it in releases and focus for the edition.

 

[Mercule]

Greyhawk for 3e amounted to little more than the gods and a few named spells until the very, very small number of supplements were released. While they may have paid lip service to Greyhawk being the default, in practice it wasn't even close. The Realms dwarfed it in releases and focus for the edition.

Indeed. There's almost as much information on Greyhawk in the 5E PHB as there was in the 3E Gazetteer. OK, that's an exaggeration, but not by as much as one might think. The SCAG, alone, has multiple times the info of the Realms as Greyhawk saw throughout 3E.

At this point, though, I'd take something at that level, just to get some visibility of something beyond the Realms to new players.

 

[MackMcMacky]

Then don't use him. Elminster sits in the background of my Realms. He has been used 3 times by me since 1e. Twice because the players sought him out for knowledge. Once as a quest giver by me since the PCs were in the area.

That's not what I am getting at. If I am on the fence about buying a product that could be the tipping point for me to not shell out my cash. The "Elminster introduces" thing

 

[Aldarc]

And Dark Sun, and Greyhawk, and despite your claims Dragonlance and Eberron (they have enough of them), and Mystara, and Planescape, and Birthright, and Al Qadim, and Spelljammer, and every other D&D setting I've seen.

I haven't seen Scarred Lands and Primeval Thule, but I'm skeptical that they will be any different.

Eberron? Not really, and certainly not in comparison with Forgotten Realms, which I believe is Hussar's point. Most NPCs listed in the original ECS rarely break level 10, with exceptions such as your typical Dragonmarked House Baron (e.g. Merrix d'Cannith). Most NPCs listed actually do have NPC class levels. This intentional design approach is apparently worth writing about, as Sean K Reynolds discusses this fact about Eberron in this old article. Even low-level NPCs are further toned-down in Eberron, as class levels are regarded as rare and exceptional.

There are only a few named NPCs off the top of my head that I can recall having high levels (15+) in Eberron: Vol, Great Druid Oalian (an awakened greatpine), the Keeper of the Flame Jaelin Daran (but only when she's in Flamekeep), and the Twin Rulers of Aerenal. As you may have noticed, these high level characters almost overwhelmingly tend to be geographically restricted. The Twins aren't going to leave Aerenal. Oalian can't leave Greenheart; he's a tree. Jaelin's high levels are only within Flamekeep, and she's a level 3 cleric everywhere else. None of these characters exceed level 20.

Can you honestly say the same about Forgotten Realms in 3e? It's laughable to claim that they are even remotely comparable. There's probably more characters in Forgotten Realms who exceed level 20 than there are in Eberron who exceed level 10. That's the sort of thing that Hussar is talking about.

 

[MackMcMacky]

Then don't use him. The characters in the groups I've run have bumped into a total of like 3 - 4 times (usually when they seek him out for advice, and even then he isn't always available) over the course of dozens of games in the Forgotten Realms since I started DMing late in the 2e era.

If I may return the question to those who keep bringing Elminster up: Why do you feel that a Forgotten Realms campaign must use Elminster (or Drizzt, or whoever)? In what way would a Forgotten Realms campaign "fail" in your eyes if such characters weren't used (or even didn't exist at all, which is certainly within the DM's remit, and has been the case for some FR games I've been in as a player over the years)?

I don't like Elminster. I don't like Driz'zt. I don't like Khelben. I don't like Simbul. I don't like the Harpers. I don't like... At a certain point I have nothing to use but a map that isn't any more compelling than any other map. I don't like many of the NPCs introduced in the old days because they were not only high level. They were dripping with special magic items and special abilities. I don't like Elminster because he was a high level mage with a ton of tack-ons. I don't like Driz'zt because his very existence in a campaign re-defines Drow demystifying and weakening their "evil presence" AND then I met the guys who wanted to run Misunderstood Drow on the Surface which led me to double down on the dislike. I don't like the Harpers because they never made them interesting to me, just a built-in excuse for adventuring. I dislike the silly secret leaders of governments and the emphasis on trading states rather than semi-feudal states. I tremendously dislike the explosion of power for priests that happened years ago. There is simply not much for me to use if I discard what I do not like about the Realms. And I don't care if they fixed some or all of this stuff for 5E. Too little too late. I have moved on.