D&D 5E The non-mage mage, or an alternative to the EK, or an option for low-magic game

[cbwjm]

It made sense from a point of view where non combat encounters were effectively not factored into your resource usage for the day... but to my mind that was a bit problematic in itself, especially since it wasn't done particularly consistently.

I do wonder what the criteria used to decide this was. I mean obviously there are some spells that shouldn't be rituals (spells that cure wounds or deal damage), but why not magic circle? Thematically it's a perfect fit, and mechanically there's nothing wrong with it, especially when something as busted to have on tap as leomund's tiny hut is already a ritual...

Anyway, I like the ritual system, but I dislike the current spell lists. They've just been meaninglessly changed in a myriad of ways from previous editions, and it just causes a heap of problems.

I feel the same about the ritual choices as you do. I could probably make a fairly decent list of spells which I think should be rituals but currently are not. Some spells essentially already are rituals (albeit with casting times of 1 minute to an hour instead of the 10 minutes of a ritual spell) but require a spell slot, probably so that people couldn't just perform a ritual to conjure an elemental for no resource cost, allowing these spells to be rituals would lead to a very different kind of game, I think, possibly with many people summoning up elementals to help in their battles.

Spells which I think could be rituals without any major change to the game are various protection spells (protection from energy, protection from evil & good, & magic circle [as you say, it's a perfect fit]); spells like Dream (already a 1 minute cast time), Glyph of Warding (an hour cast time), guardian of faith, guards and wards (10 minute cast time), and scrying (also 10 minutes to cast). Secret Chest seems like a good candidate for a ritual as well.

This isn't a complete list and I may not have thought of all of the ramifications of making them rituals, however, I think that WotC could have definitely been more liberal with their application of the ritual tag.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I feel the same about the ritual choices as you do. I could probably make a fairly decent list of spells which I think should be rituals but currently are not. Some spells essentially already are rituals (albeit with casting times of 1 minute to an hour instead of the 10 minutes of a ritual spell) but require a spell slot, probably so that people couldn't just perform a ritual to conjure an elemental for no resource cost, allowing these spells to be rituals would lead to a very different kind of game, I think, possibly with many people summoning up elementals to help in their battles.

Spells which I think could be rituals without any major change to the game are various protection spells (protection from energy, protection from evil & good, & magic circle [as you say, it's a perfect fit]); spells like Dream (already a 1 minute cast time)

Protection from energy and protection from evil and good as rituals would be "why would you not have these up all the time?" sort of spells, so I think that making them rituals would be a bad idea. Magic circle is tied to a location, which is why I think it's fine.

Dream is problematic, because it deals damage and interrupts rests. I think that if you want it as a ritual, move that component to another spell. In short - revert it to 3.5e (split between dream and nightmare). Which is generally a good idea for a whole lot of spells in 5e, where editing from prior editions has made them muddy and random, but I digress.

, Glyph of Warding (an hour cast time), guardian of faith, guards and wards (10 minute cast time), and scrying (also 10 minutes to cast). Secret Chest seems like a good candidate for a ritual as well.

I agree with all those.

It's interesting to imagine what might happen if you were to make some combat spells rituals. 10 rounds to cast a shatter spell is fairly useless to adventuring, but would revolutionize siege warfare or construction, for instance.

 

[Ancalagon]

Go with Monk instead, and choose Cleric spells. That way he can walk around in robes and not get ripped apart due to low AC.

Well, it wouldn't be very mage-like if he clanked around in full plate but... he could still wear some armor. I mean, the "mages can't use armor" is an old pre-5e notion. He could have a chain shirt under his robes for example. His mage armor, of "cold iron, sovereign against blows"

Honestly right now my main challenge is picking his fighting style. Staff in one hand, sword in the other? Sure that is what Gandalf did in the movies, but it didn't look right did it?

I mean look at that... it feels... awkward as heck

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1rj0wBPSok

 

[Ancalagon]

Now now folks, what spell should or shouldn't be a ritual is another discussion, don't derail my thread! I would *never* do that...

erm... yeah :/

Anyway, moving on, another challenge for me, conceptually, is what few spells this guy should have - the *non* ritual one/s I mean (he could take magic initiate more than once!). The problem is all those spells will be level 1, and most level 1 spells don't scale well with level. We need something that is as useful at level 9 as it is at level 1.

 

[Kobold Stew]

I played a fighter with the ritual caster (Wizard) feat for a while -- it was awesome.

Ooh -- here's Kobold Stew's patented Ritual Caster hack: the prerequisite is either Int 13 or Wis 13 -- doesn't matter which class you choose! And since most ritual spells don't involve a DC, you can dump Intelligence, have a Wisdom of 13 and still get the Wizard rituals!

 

[cbwjm]

Now now folks, what spell should or shouldn't be a ritual is another discussion, don't derail my thread! I would *never* do that...

erm... yeah :/

Anyway, moving on, another challenge for me, conceptually, is what few spells this guy should have - the *non* ritual one/s I mean (he could take magic initiate more than once!). The problem is all those spells will be level 1, and most level 1 spells don't scale well with level. We need something that is as useful at level 9 as it is at level 1.

Goodberry or Create/destroy water could be good choices if he always ends up in situations where his supplies are running low.

Speak with animals if you want him to be like Gandalf who could apparently talk to eagles or something.

If you want to run him as a wizard that likes getting into the thick of battle then jump or longstrider could be decent choices. Bless would also be an excellent choice if he is a leader of men. If he actually wants to magically enhance his sword then divine favour would be a great addition.

 

[Mistwell]

So here's the idea.

Take a fighter - make it a champion (battle master is too fiddly and to obviously someone who trains as a warrior, champion is more raw talent). Take the sage background. Take the feats "magic initiate" and "ritual magic". Roleplay like a wizard - but one like Gandalf, very knowledgeable, hardy, tramping around with a sword but using magic sparingly.

Suboptimal? Probably. Fun? (esp in a party with no wizards or sorcerers) Oh yes

If you are really interested in a low magic campaign, I strongly recommend reading the Adventures in Middle Earth books! They have new classes, including a couple of strong non-magic substitutes for the things magic tends to do in this game.

 

[Ancalagon]

If you are really interested in a low magic campaign, I strongly recommend reading the Adventures in Middle Earth books! They have new classes, including a couple of strong non-magic substitutes for the things magic tends to do in this game.

I'm tempted! Although I've heard that the traditional spell casting classes essentially had their magic really toned down without much added to compensate, so the warrior-types dominate in combat.

That being said, I just find this concept to be very entertaining and intriguing, even in a "regular" game...

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=23]Ancalagon[/MENTION] The way magic was presented in the Lord of the Rings movies can be dubbed "full contact magic"; there's an entire article about it on tvtropes.com. "Force mage" might be another term. During 4e, I came up with an idea for an abjurer class inspired by the depiction of Gandalf and Saruman in Peter Jackson's films. I think your game would work nicely, but there is also a basis for more involved homebrewing too.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I created that character last night on paper, and man it looks fun to play.
Also the Sage from AiME is often called a NPC class, but I disagree, its just mostly based on skills and social features, which is probably not a good thing for everybody. It gives you the ability to add something to the DM narrative 1/adventure, something like: ''Knowing we were to faced an overwhelming foe, I secretly sent for reinforcement from the nearby elf village just before we departed''. You can also skip some dangerous encounters while traveling because you know a secret path to your destination, which is very valuable in a setting where explorations is a danger in itself. This is the kind of character I like to play usualy and would not mind trading spellcasting for those features. The warden, which is the spell-less bard from AiME, lose many thing and gets little in return, but in a setting where dealing with strange kingdom an powerful leaders, having an emissary is something every group wants. So these classes are generaly less powerful then their PHB counterparts, but are powerful in the right setting/themed game.