D&D 5E Bladesinger - a criticism of its design

[clearstream]

reduces it's effectiveness as a wizard concurrently

Let's define effectiveness here. Does it have a meaning other than "resolving the encounter in the party's favour with minimum costs or losses"?

 

[Ovinomancer]

I gave maths -- I provided the exact formula you need to figure it out on your own. And my offer was for AC, bonus to hit, and number of rounds, and you provided that exactly once and I gave you the numbers for the midpoint of your scenario already. If you're going to demand things, maybe actually do it before you accuse me of reneging.

For AC 22, +8 to hit, 8 attacks, blur:
At least,,,,,chance
1 hit..........65%
2 hits.........26%
3 hits.........6%
4 hits.........1%
1 Crit..........2%

For AC 23, +8 to hit, 8 attacks, blur:
1 hit...........53%
2 hits..........16%
3 hits...........3%
1 Crit...........2% (this doesn't change)

For AC 24, +8 to hit, 9 attacks, blur:
1 hit............40%
2 hits...........9%
3 hits...........1%
1 Crit...........2%

Without cleric spells, AC 21, +8 to hit, blur:
1 hit...........75%
2 hits.........37%
3 hits.........12%
4 hits...........3%
1 Crit...........2%

Loses initiative for 2 attacks (rocks) (25% chance of occurrence or 1:4 fights), , AC 17 then AC 21 with blur, +8 to hit, 4 attacks (after the 2 rocks):
Rocks:
1 hit...........84%
2 hits..........36%
Melee
1 hit...........50%
2 hits..........12%
3 hits..........1%


Pick a scenario, I'll give you the PDF. It's not as pretty as you're assuming with your play examples. And, remember, those numbers are "at least this many hits". That first one is a 65% chance of being hit at least once.

Does 1 giant attack always down the blade singer? Does it have a chance to? What is that chance? What about 2 attacks?

Now, with that in mind let's see how a standard sword and shield fighter will do. Post the numbers for us if you don't mind. Lets see your chances of taking 1, 2 3 and 4 hits. Let's also estimate how many attacks its going to take to down the fighter. I'm guessing maybe 1 more than it takes to down the blade singer? Heck include 2nd wind if you can.

I'm betting the blade singer lives just as long as the fighter against those giants. Maybe a monte carlo sim would be best for this. I think a forum member has made one that would be more or less capable of this exercise.[/QUOTE]

No, bladesinger in the example has CON 14, so 31 hp at 6th level (5*5+6). Max damage on 3d8+5 is 29 hps, so it's impossible for a single non-crit to down the bladesinger. 2 hits will almost always drop the bladesinger (odds of getting 21+ on 6d8 is 87%).

Standard sword and board assumed to be AC 20? Defensive style for 21?

AC 20, +8 to hit, 8 attacks:
1 hit.....99%
2 hits....94%
3 hits....78%
4 hits....52%
5 hits....26%
6 hits....9%
7 hits....2%

AC 21, +8 to hit, 8 attacks:
1 hit.....98%
2 hits....89%
3 hits....68%
4 hits....41%
5 hits....17%
6 hits....5%
7 hits....1%

Disadvantage makes a HUGE difference in numbers. This assumes that the both the fighter and the bladesinger face the same number of attacks, ie that the tank takes all attacks and that both parties are equally effective at killing the giants. I'm not convinced this is a reasonable assumption. The Champion may face 2 fewer attacks. Regardless, it's a solid assumption that the AC 20 sword and board fighter will take at least 4 hits in the fight.

The fighter has an 18 CON. That 18 hitpoints at first, then 5*10 or 68 hitpoints. Chance to deal 48 damage (68-20 for STR damage from 4 hits) on 12d8 is 79%. The fighter likely drops to 8 giant attacks. If the fighter uses second wind for 5+6 hitpoints, the giant has to deal 59 damage on 12d8, which is a 29% chance. The AC20 fighter likely lives with a second wind.

The math changes a bit for the AC 21 fighter, who is likely (more than 50%) to be hit only 3 times. The chance to deal 53 damage on 9d8 is 4%. This is improved to about 1/10% chance.

LD50 from giants for a fighter using second wind is 5 hits.
LD50 from giants for a bladesinger is 2 hits.

 

[Ovinomancer]

If casting two spells in round one wins a combat with minimal further resource costs or losses, then that is the best tactic. It does. So it is.

Tactics should be judged on outcomes, not preconceptions.

I missed where you showed this proof. Can you provide?

 

[Shayuri]

Just to weigh in.

I've played a bladesinger from 1st level to what will soon be level 17; possibly as far as 18 before the end.

Bladesingers are strong. At low levels, I pretty much fought hand to hand in the front line with the warriors. My defense was higher, my damage output generally lower, but roughly on par. I threw the occasional spell, but didn't rely on them much.

Around level 5 or 6, the balance shifted. Even with Extra Attack, I more often found casting a spell was a better use of my action than attacking. I could still mix it up in the front lines, but often spent a round or two lobbing spells in before closing in.

By level 12, my melee attack ability is more or less an afterthought. I go toe to toe when an encounter isn't worth spending a precious spell slot on. I do not -fear- getting caught in melee like most mages, but I am generally a spellcaster first, a melee warrior second.

Now I'm level 16, and this trend is reinforced. I generally try not to spend more than two or three spells per fight, and bladesinging means I can still contribute materially when I reach that threshold. Exceptionally challenging encounters may force me to uncork a coveted level 6 or 7 spell, but I try to keep my 'casual' encounter spellcasting to levels 5 or less. Bladesinging makes this approach more workable.

I would say that, on the whole, a bladesinger is more 'powerful' than a wizard of another path. They don't have the magical advantages that specialty paths offer, but they have a very flexible and versatile role that makes them less reliant on spell slots to get through 'trash' battles. This means I have more spells available more often for the harder fights. A net advantage.

I would not say that I threaten the role dominance of other warriors in the party. To be fair, we don't have a raw fighter. We have a paladin, ranger and rogue. They outdamage me in melee routinely. The paladin's AC rivals my own most of the time, though I can spike mine higher than his. The advantage I present to the group is a wizard who offers wizardly firepower and utility, but is far less vulnerable; they do not spend their time trying to keep me out of trouble. However, most of my weight is pulled not by swordfighting, but by spellcasting...hence the overall party balance is maintained.

This is not to say there's no issues with bladesingers from a design perspective. Further, my character build is not remotely 'optimized.' By level 16 I have Dex 20 and Int 18, and don't use melee cantrips much though I do have Booming Blade. In hindsight I can see how I could build a more 'effective' character with the Bladesinger path...but I am happy with my character as she is. It's a good fit for the group.

Bladesingers are strong, and I can understand complaints that they're unbalanced. However, my experience of them is that they don't make the game less fun. Or at least that they don't necessarily.

 

[Mephista]

stuff

Pretty much mirrors my experiences, though Haste kept me in the front lines longer than Shayuri's character. Good to hear that I'm not the only one who felt that around level 6 was the height of the melee power of a bladesinger in melee.

I guess that's the problem of all the full casters turned gish - battle magic seems to cap out. You need either paladin smites or ranger bow spells to keep going, and those are pretty tricky to get your hands on without being a bard or multi-classing, leaving you to default to your stereotype.

 

[clearstream]

Standard sword and board assumed to be AC 20? Defensive style for 21?

AC 20, +8 to hit, 8 attacks:
1 hit.....99%
2 hits....94%
3 hits....78%
4 hits....52%
5 hits....26%
6 hits....9%
7 hits....2%

AC 21, +8 to hit, 8 attacks:
1 hit.....98%
2 hits....89%
3 hits....68%
4 hits....41%
5 hits....17%
6 hits....5%
7 hits....1%

The fighter has an 18 CON. That 18 hitpoints at first, then 5*10 or 68 hitpoints. Chance to deal 48 damage (68-20 for STR damage from 4 hits) on 12d8 is 79%. The fighter likely drops to 8 giant attacks. If the fighter uses second wind for 5+6 hitpoints, the giant has to deal 59 damage on 12d8, which is a 29% chance. The AC20 fighter likely lives with a second wind.

How many cure spells is the Cleric casting on the Champion between fights? Or is the Champion going into its second encounter with fewer HP?

 

[Ovinomancer]

How many cure spells is the Cleric casting on the Champion between fights? Or is the Champion going into its second encounter with fewer HP?

I wouldn't know, it's not a scenario with built characters, it's a direct response to a specific question with set parameters. I've provided those answers just as I provided them to you. I've been stupid busy with life and work, and barely had time to get that answer in. So, don't expect answers for questions I haven't even looked into I a larger scale.

Confounders are that I do not think the giants will live as long as in your scenario, so there may be fewer attacks. Secondly, damage had a high variance, and while I can answer with the pdfs asking about a specific amount of damage, it's harder to judge exact damage. I would assume average damage for all attacks, but would provide the total pdf if I can figure the sd, which is nontrivial. All of that depends on time I have (I'm waiting in a car right now, frex).

My quick guess is three hits at 18 each with 11 temp is 43 hp damage. 2 HD would clear 10 each for 23 remaining. That's roughly 3 cure wounds from the cleric.

 

[Tony Vargas]

How many cure spells is the Cleric casting on the Champion between fights? Or is the Champion going into its second encounter with fewer HP?

You just get a new Champion when the old one dies...
They're prettymuch fungible.

 

[Ovinomancer]

You just get a new Champion when the old one dies...
They're prettymuch fungible.

Depends on what they use their 6th level ASI for, really.

 

[FrogReaver]

[MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION]

Does 1 giant attack always down the blade singer? Does it have a chance to? What is that chance? What about 2 attacks?

Now, with that in mind let's see how a standard sword and shield fighter will do. Post the numbers for us if you don't mind. Lets see your chances of taking 1, 2 3 and 4 hits. Let's also estimate how many attacks its going to take to down the fighter. I'm guessing maybe 1 more than it takes to down the blade singer? Heck include 2nd wind if you can.

I'm betting the blade singer lives just as long as the fighter against those giants. Maybe a monte carlo sim would be best for this. I think a forum member has made one that would be more or less capable of this exercise.

No, bladesinger in the example has CON 14, so 31 hp at 6th level (5*5+6). Max damage on 3d8+5 is 29 hps, so it's impossible for a single non-crit to down the bladesinger. 2 hits will almost always drop the bladesinger (odds of getting 21+ on 6d8 is 87%).

Standard sword and board assumed to be AC 20? Defensive style for 21?

AC 20, +8 to hit, 8 attacks:
1 hit.....99%
2 hits....94%
3 hits....78%
4 hits....52%
5 hits....26%
6 hits....9%
7 hits....2%

AC 21, +8 to hit, 8 attacks:
1 hit.....98%
2 hits....89%
3 hits....68%
4 hits....41%
5 hits....17%
6 hits....5%
7 hits....1%

Disadvantage makes a HUGE difference in numbers. This assumes that the both the fighter and the bladesinger face the same number of attacks, ie that the tank takes all attacks and that both parties are equally effective at killing the giants. I'm not convinced this is a reasonable assumption. The Champion may face 2 fewer attacks. Regardless, it's a solid assumption that the AC 20 sword and board fighter will take at least 4 hits in the fight.

The fighter has an 18 CON. That 18 hitpoints at first, then 5*10 or 68 hitpoints. Chance to deal 48 damage (68-20 for STR damage from 4 hits) on 12d8 is 79%. The fighter likely drops to 8 giant attacks. If the fighter uses second wind for 5+6 hitpoints, the giant has to deal 59 damage on 12d8, which is a 29% chance. The AC20 fighter likely lives with a second wind.

The math changes a bit for the AC 21 fighter, who is likely (more than 50%) to be hit only 3 times. The chance to deal 53 damage on 9d8 is 4%. This is improved to about 1/10% chance.

LD50 from giants for a fighter using second wind is 5 hits.
LD50 from giants for a bladesinger is 2 hits.

You basically admit the bladeSinger requires 2 hits to down. The fighter on the other hand requires 5.

I find it amazing that the blurred bladeSinger at 22 AC perfectly matches the champion fighter with 20 AC in chance to be downed. Both are at 26% since it takes 2 hits to kill the blade singer but 5 to kill the fighter.

Likewise the 23 AC bladeSinger has about the same chance of surviving as the 21 AC champion. 16% vs 17%.

From where I'm sitting it seems those 2 characters are basically equal at surviving the giants. The bladeSinger does so with a spell slot but less HP loss which could potentially translate cleric or druid or bard spells that were saved from not having to heal as much. Since the bladeSinger can only survive one hit he would definitely shield on the 2nd if possible and that should basically mean he survives the fight no questions asked. The fighter though doesn't really have any tricks up his sleeve other than dodging and not attacking. Though after 3-4 hits that's exactly the tactic he should employ.

All in all I'd say the 2 characters are roughly equal at tanking considering the likely drain on party resources each is causing trying to do so.

Would you agree?