Fourward Path

pemerton

Legend
Honestly, what I think is that Gygax and MOST of the people playing 'mainstream' D&D of that time period didn't envisage the sort of story/descriptor play we are talking about. They were being mostly gamist with a thin veneer of simulating reality where it made things easier/more interesting. Thus they didn't create personality traits, for instance, nor plot coupons. AD&D is just a natural evolution into more mechanically specific rules, thus 'improving' the ability of the GM to roll out some dice to adjudicate something 'fairly and realistically'.

<snip>

There were various 'narrative' traditions of play though, they were just kept to the side, and often relegated to playing heavily hacked personal variants of OD&D as time went on. Some of these people are (or at least were) very much in the 'Old School' camp, having issues even with Greyhawk (which was where a lot of mechanical definition started to gel).
I agree that they weren't doing it at the start. Even without having been there (either in time or location), when you look at how Gygax describes "successful adventuring" in his PHB it's clear that he's describing a wargame/boardgame, but with much greater flexibility around "the fiction" because of the role of the GM and the conceit that there is no inbuilt constraint on permissible "moves".

But there are at least two features inherent to the game that push towards, or at least hint at, the approach we're discussing.

One is "mechanical" in a loose rather than strict sense: if I can have a Strength trait whose numerical rating is not so much an input into mechanics in the strict sense but more of a consideration in adjudicating the fiction, then why not a Luck trait? A Hopeless Romantic trait? Etc.

AD&D heads this off at the pass by turning the traits from these "rated descriptors" into mechanical inputs in the strict sense, and D&D has kept that up since. (Except perhaps in 2nd ed AD&D, when I think the stats were once again envisaged as closer to descriptors, but this time to guide the players' characterisation rather than adjudication of the fiction in the context of action declaration.)

But the other avenue of development in principle remained open.

The second feature that pushes away from the gamist/wargame style is that the game clearly involves a shared fiction which is an intricate and intimate part of play in a very different way from (say) the flavour text on a Magic card, or even the flavour of a card in a Middle-Earth collectible card game, or the flavour in boardgames like Talisman, Mystic Wood, Wrath of Arshadalon, etc.

When you look at the games coming out a few years down the track (say RuneQuest and Classic Traveller) it seems fairly clear that these were intended to evoke and involve story in a different way from classic dungeon-delving. (Though they didn't necessarily know how to actually pull that off in a design sense.)
 

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Marshall

First Post
The over specialization issue definitely there its the same reason people end up using only 1 of their at-wills.
Flexible characters need to be more viable in my opinion.
Its not totally a specialization problem, tho. It's also that the bonuses to using specialized weapons or tactics or strategies are often insignificant compared to any other bonus and/or the penalty for not using it. We went from the 1e extreme of being completely ineffective without the right weapons to it not mattering.
It's a fine line to tread between so-what and I-win-button but it's a line that needs to be trod.
The thing is that 4e already has the setup to combat the issue. Why not just give each weapon it's own power?

move 2 spaces perform a standard action, move 2 more perform a minor action, move 2 more ...
Well yeah. That's part of having a speed instead of a discreet move action.
 

I agree that they weren't doing it at the start. Even without having been there (either in time or location), when you look at how Gygax describes "successful adventuring" in his PHB it's clear that he's describing a wargame/boardgame, but with much greater flexibility around "the fiction" because of the role of the GM and the conceit that there is no inbuilt constraint on permissible "moves".

But there are at least two features inherent to the game that push towards, or at least hint at, the approach we're discussing.

One is "mechanical" in a loose rather than strict sense: if I can have a Strength trait whose numerical rating is not so much an input into mechanics in the strict sense but more of a consideration in adjudicating the fiction, then why not a Luck trait? A Hopeless Romantic trait? Etc.
Right, and in fact there were contemporary games which did exactly that. None of them really went far, mostly being little amateur publications (fanzine stuff, or even just ambitious GMs and club members who managed to mimeograph a copy of their house rules) and whatnot. Arduin Grimoire IIRC contains a few bits like that, and it was pretty much the most successful of that ilk. You can see hints of it in Judges Guild stuff sometimes too.

AD&D heads this off at the pass by turning the traits from these "rated descriptors" into mechanical inputs in the strict sense, and D&D has kept that up since. (Except perhaps in 2nd ed AD&D, when I think the stats were once again envisaged as closer to descriptors, but this time to guide the players' characterisation rather than adjudication of the fiction in the context of action declaration.)

But the other avenue of development in principle remained open.
Well, Gygax certainly seems to have been adamantly in the "The DM is absolutely in charge of the fiction" camp. That naturally went well with a "the rules are a map of the fiction" at least to whatever degree was convenient to him. I think by the PHB time period Gygax himself was also pretty much beyond the "running a personal campaign" phase of his gaming. Instead he was organizing and running large tournaments at cons and doing gaming evangelism. He wanted and needed a hardened set of play expectations, and one easy way to get it was to double down on the 'wargame' aspect of D&D, its a set of rules that you follow in a standard fashion that produces results. Obviously open-ended, but if he could go to a tourney and run 'Tsojconth' and point to the rule book and say "This tells you how to do it" that was way superior from his perspective than a totally free-form game where its practically impossible to 'stick to the rails' and compare the performance of one group vs another.

When 2e came along TSR was already starting to feel the heat. D&D was looking more and more antiquated. A number of titles had been produced by the mid-to-late 80's that presaged the Storyteller System 'Vampire' game of 1991, which marked the mainstream coming out of a more narratively focused kind of play. By 2e's arrival LARP was already a big thing (always was in a sense, but it started to become more a way of organized RPG play, before it was more an adjunct, basically SCA and such with some people having an interest in fantasy/wargaming/RPGs).

So TSR gave lip-service to 'storytelling' as a strong element of play, but no actual mechanical support for it. Quite the contrary 2e further codifies and structures the rules, going so far as to provide structure by which the GM can make up setting-specific classes and etc. Kits kind of straddle the line, they have a lot of purely RP significance, but also provide a mechanism for attaching additional mechanical choices onto characters, presaging 3e.

The second feature that pushes away from the gamist/wargame style is that the game clearly involves a shared fiction which is an intricate and intimate part of play in a very different way from (say) the flavour text on a Magic card, or even the flavour of a card in a Middle-Earth collectible card game, or the flavour in boardgames like Talisman, Mystic Wood, Wrath of Arshadalon, etc.

When you look at the games coming out a few years down the track (say RuneQuest and Classic Traveller) it seems fairly clear that these were intended to evoke and involve story in a different way from classic dungeon-delving. (Though they didn't necessarily know how to actually pull that off in a design sense.)

Well, yes, there is a shared fiction. Gygax himself seems to have simply believed that the sharing should go one-way, from GM to players. He was still really playing a sort of open-ended wargame himself. It probably got VERY open-ended with his personal crew of players, the ones that reached 'level 20' or whatever and became basically co-DMs. Still, he never had the slightest truck with some level 1 guy coming in and inventing some fiction beyond "my character does this thing, which is supported by rule X", or at least comported with established in-game 'realism'). So, the furthest that Gygax himself could go was 1e, basically. In later life he seems to have played in a somewhat looser way, but I haven't actually ever read his post-D&D RPG system work, so I can't tell what he was thinking by then, years later. I don't recall much noise from him at all during most of the 90's while TSR was slowly disintegrating.

RQ and Traveller certainly evoke different genre/milieu than D&D, but they don't really move any significant distance beyond the 'rules match reality, the GM generates the fiction' model that Gygax espoused. RQ is a very mechanically defined game, I don't recall anything much in it that wasn't nailed to some sort of % roll. Call of Cthulhu (though the latest edition has leaned a bit in a different direction) exemplifies that perfectly, as it uses basically the same system. Everything is decided by checks against one of an infinite list of skills, or against a stat directly, or possibly using the 'Luck' stat (but even that has a precisely defined mechanic to it, there's no player input or use of it as a plot device even hinted at in the rules).

Traveller is a bit different mechanically from D&D. It is obviously heavily influenced BY D&D, having an equivalent but very slightly different, 6 stats, and the minor simplification of throwing 2d6, which made its skill system work better than with 3d6 (I presume this and maybe just 'cause its different than D&D, accounted for that). Yes, EDU and SS are EXTRINSIC vs INTRINSIC attributes of a character, which is an interesting difference, but Marc Miller left any potential to leverage that strictly on the table. There isn't so much as a hint that one should 'invoke' one's social standing to say commandeer a vessel, or exercise authority over some sort of group of retainers that presumably a title like 'Duke' of an Empire of 1000 trillion souls would inevitably imply must exist.

Fundamentally I think Gygax and D&D in general simply followed the easiest path. Its really much easier to GM when you are 'in charge' and it is a model that works with most random collections of people at a table, assuming the GM is reasonably competent, like you find at a con or similar event. It works OK for most casual groups of gamers, and it worked fairly well for teenagers, who (if I'm any indication) didn't really care or bother too much with what the rules seemed to be saying anyway. We played in a more free-form way, but for the game and TSR it was easier to focus on the singular omnipotent GM and just produce rules and material for that one guy. Its hard to argue this model wasn't the best road to success. Story Teller has largely faded, 'indy' RPGs all rolled together are 1/10th of 5e, and D&D carries on, sticking almost entirely to its guns, one or two odd bits aside (like 5e's Inspiration, which seems largely ignored IME).
 

pemerton

Legend
I think by the PHB time period Gygax himself was also pretty much beyond the "running a personal campaign" phase of his gaming. Instead he was organizing and running large tournaments at cons and doing gaming evangelism. He wanted and needed a hardened set of play expectations, and one easy way to get it was to double down on the 'wargame' aspect of D&D, its a set of rules that you follow in a standard fashion that produces results. Obviously open-ended, but if he could go to a tourney and run 'Tsojconth' and point to the rule book and say "This tells you how to do it" that was way superior from his perspective than a totally free-form game where its practically impossible to 'stick to the rails' and compare the performance of one group vs another.

<snip>

Fundamentally I think Gygax and D&D in general simply followed the easiest path. Its really much easier to GM when you are 'in charge' and it is a model that works with most random collections of people at a table, assuming the GM is reasonably competent, like you find at a con or similar event. It works OK for most casual groups of gamers, and it worked fairly well for teenagers, who (if I'm any indication) didn't really care or bother too much with what the rules seemed to be saying anyway. We played in a more free-form way, but for the game and TSR it was easier to focus on the singular omnipotent GM and just produce rules and material for that one guy. Its hard to argue this model wasn't the best road to success. Story Teller has largely faded, 'indy' RPGs all rolled together are 1/10th of 5e, and D&D carries on, sticking almost entirely to its guns, one or two odd bits aside (like 5e's Inspiration, which seems largely ignored IME).
I think this is all true. It puzzles me a bit, though, when people who play this way (which seems to be most, or at least many, of them) insist they're actually doing something different!

RQ and Traveller certainly evoke different genre/milieu than D&D, but they don't really move any significant distance beyond the 'rules match reality, the GM generates the fiction' model that Gygax espoused. RQ is a very mechanically defined game, I don't recall anything much in it that wasn't nailed to some sort of % roll. Call of Cthulhu (though the latest edition has leaned a bit in a different direction) exemplifies that perfectly, as it uses basically the same system. Everything is decided by checks against one of an infinite list of skills, or against a stat directly, or possibly using the 'Luck' stat (but even that has a precisely defined mechanic to it, there's no player input or use of it as a plot device even hinted at in the rules).

Traveller is a bit different mechanically from D&D. It is obviously heavily influenced BY D&D, having an equivalent but very slightly different, 6 stats, and the minor simplification of throwing 2d6, which made its skill system work better than with 3d6 (I presume this and maybe just 'cause its different than D&D, accounted for that). Yes, EDU and SS are EXTRINSIC vs INTRINSIC attributes of a character, which is an interesting difference, but Marc Miller left any potential to leverage that strictly on the table. There isn't so much as a hint that one should 'invoke' one's social standing to say commandeer a vessel, or exercise authority over some sort of group of retainers that presumably a title like 'Duke' of an Empire of 1000 trillion souls would inevitably imply must exist.
I would put this into the cateogry of "they didn't necessarily know how to actually pull that off in a design sense".

For instance, all the RQ stuff about cults, becoming an initiate or a shaman, etc, seems to have been intended to produce a play experience pretty different - and with more "story"/thematically richer fiction - than Temple of Elemental Evil.

And while I agree with you that Traveller has limitations (eg in envisaging what Social Standing might mean in the fiction), it also seems to have envisaged a world with public officials (hence Admin skill, law levels, etc), with individuals with a wide range of motivations that make sense in the context of economic/cultural modernity (the Patron encounters), and the like. There seems to be no analogue in Traveller of the town as a nebulous place and we just cut to the dungeon, which bears no connection to any sort of reality or even imagined reality. (The Greek Underworlds didn't have chess puzzle traps, for instance.)

My thoughts here are inevitably influenced by my own play experiences - but I ran a AD&D one-shot about a year ago and there was absolutely no interest in taking it any further; whereas so far I'm five sessions into a Classic Traveller game, and (I think) it has a genuine life to it. Traveller brings with it the resources (its professions andl ifepath PC gen; its skills; its worlds; etc) to make a game that is more than just a wargame, whereas I think that would be a big struggle with AD&D unless you grafted on a whole lot of additional systems.
 

I think this is all true. It puzzles me a bit, though, when people who play this way (which seems to be most, or at least many, of them) insist they're actually doing something different!
Heh, well, perhaps they were exposed to a different style of play in their formative gaming. I moved from a bit of a 'free form' concept to playing 'like everyone else', but I guess at that time I thought I must have been 'doing it wrong'. Then I beat my head against the wall of Gygaxian play until I figured out that what I did at age 12 was actually a good idea! Other people maybe didn't care for that early free form kind of experience and instead learned to play more like Gygax, but thought it was their own different way! (and in fairness they might stylistically differ from 'Gygaxian' DMs in a whole host of other ways that were simply more significant in their evaluation of what was different and what was mainstream).

I would put this into the cateogry of "they didn't necessarily know how to actually pull that off in a design sense".
Right, there really isn't a very clearly articulated early example of a mechanical plot device in a major RPG, not before the mid-80's anyway (Toon comes to mind, and I think Gangster! maybe had some such elements, both games were published sometime in the mid-80's to my recollection). I think you can certainly argue that Traveller, by eliminating the whole 'character progression' element of play from the mechanics, was TRYING to turn the focus towards RP (You can only advance your character in terms of the fictional narrative, though some of those improvements will translate back to mechanical advantages in terms of better ships, guns, armor, etc).

For instance, all the RQ stuff about cults, becoming an initiate or a shaman, etc, seems to have been intended to produce a play experience pretty different - and with more "story"/thematically richer fiction - than Temple of Elemental Evil.
Yeah, I agree, there were also, a bit later, games like 'Skyrealms of Jorune' which were very emphatic about stories and settings being the central focus. These could be seen as incipient story games (even EPT falls into this category, as its setting is really its big thing, the rules are basically just variant OD&D with a few customizations). NONE of them, AFAIK (not a Jorune guru) has actual mechanics or play procedure that give players any sort of dramatic input outside of their characters actual choices in-game.

And while I agree with you that Traveller has limitations (eg in envisaging what Social Standing might mean in the fiction), it also seems to have envisaged a world with public officials (hence Admin skill, law levels, etc), with individuals with a wide range of motivations that make sense in the context of economic/cultural modernity (the Patron encounters), and the like. There seems to be no analogue in Traveller of the town as a nebulous place and we just cut to the dungeon, which bears no connection to any sort of reality or even imagined reality. (The Greek Underworlds didn't have chess puzzle traps, for instance.)
Well, unlike D&D, Traveller is a very 'gritty' game. It absolutely supposes that the world is entirely realistic. Its combat system for example is actually QUITE realistic, given the limitations of RPGs and their gamist needs. Being shot with a pistol is damned hazardous! Maybe SLIGHTLY less likely to be instantly lethal than in real life, but not by much (IIRC a basic pistol or rifle does about 11 points of average damage, and a PC has about 20 points before instant death, there are no 'critical hits', but a good damage roll on a physically weaker PC could kill them). The point is, it is expected that locations and the elements of society and government will correspond to some imaginable and realistic (at least plausible) pattern. So there will be laws, rules, administrators, economics, and other such things. In a sense these simply ARE the 'challenge' of Traveller.

If you think about it, the typical situation that the rules generate is a motley assortment of ex-military types all huddled aboard some 200 ton Free Trader that can just about make its mortgage payments if the crew is willing to take no pay and not be choosy about what sort of cargo/passengers they haul (passengers who have a finite chance of deciding to make themselves the owners in mid-jump). Their greatest threats are law enforcement, bureaucrats, and the machinations of various nobles and megacorps with whom they might have the misfortune to cross paths. Most of this means negotiating, bribing, duping, concealing, and other such nefarious activities, interspersed with hair-raising instances of death-defying battles, ship malfunctions, and maybe some weird alien encounters or more classic location-based adventures.

So, the challenges are different, but the essential mechanics are still D&D-esque in the sense that they fall to the rules to resolve conflict and the player's input is through character choices and actions modulated by the mechanics of skills etc. IN THEORY you might move to the level of a PC using EDU to basically say "Yeah, I know about this type of animal, as a xenobiologist I should know about its reproductive strategy", but that would be followed by a dice roll against 'xenobiology' (and note that even EDU doesn't play a defined role here, though you might get a modifier to the skill check). There's no mechanic for "I invoke my EDU to make up lore about the creature's reproductive strategy that we can use to help us find a way to eradicate it" or something like that. Not even Social Standing has that, although it could be argued to be fairly strongly implied within the stock Imperium setting that the game basically assumes. Still, there isn't a way to even make a check against an ability score directly, the GM would have to just decide for himself if it would work, or else break it down into a detailed process that would involve existing skills.

My thoughts here are inevitably influenced by my own play experiences - but I ran a AD&D one-shot about a year ago and there was absolutely no interest in taking it any further; whereas so far I'm five sessions into a Classic Traveller game, and (I think) it has a genuine life to it. Traveller brings with it the resources (its professions andl ifepath PC gen; its skills; its worlds; etc) to make a game that is more than just a wargame, whereas I think that would be a big struggle with AD&D unless you grafted on a whole lot of additional systems.

I think you can argue that 2e DOES point GMs in the right direction in its non-mechanical presentation. I could imagine a game that leveraged the rules framework of 2e AD&D pretty well and yet was not focused on setpiece location adventure (ala modules). So, for example you could put the PCs in a milieu like 'You are all nomads roaming the Great Sea of Grass on your trusty lizard mounts' and then allow things to sandbox into tribal conflict, invasion, civilization vs barbarians, etc. It is just not the typical formulation for a D&D game, and you'd have to be willing to accommodate maybe bending some 'rules' of D&D to make it work well. Like changing the way characters are initially equipped, maybe creating more specialized caster spell lists and priest classes, perhaps a couple of specific kits would be handy, etc. 2e actually HELPS this exact scenario in one way, it lacks 'barbarian as a class' and so you're free to create 'culturally focused' kits that embody that sort of distinction instead. I'm not sure if this is part of why Zeb Cook excised the barbarian from core 2e or not, but I thought it was a great improvement. Kara-Tur particularly suffered from the existence of that class.

Is it easier to do that sort of game in Traveller? Yes, because Traveller simply lacks a really hard and fast concept of what you ARE supposed to do. I described the 'typical party' above, but the game doesn't honestly seem to put that forward as an INTENDED setup, it is just 'what happens when you unwrap the box and start rolling on the charts'. So, in a sense it is a 'looser' game. Frankly, given its focus on a modestly gritty realism, you can quite easily invent variant milieu in Traveller, like a pre-starflight game of planetary exploration (just build TL8 ships, not ENTIRELY realistic, but if you add a few details to the ship rules you can come close enough). You could do a variant game where the PCs are part of an isolated colony with no contact to galactic civilization, perhaps even one with a 'fallen civilization' or something (though now you would have to really hack the chargen rules a bunch, non-trivial but pretty easy to envisage working with say some pre-gens).

I gues the point is, Traveller is a BIT more flexible than D&D, but perhaps more in terms of convention and some characteristics of the milieu than due to any significant rules innovation. I think it is instructive to note that Traveller has actually never strayed far from its original campaign structure, or really innovated much, whereas D&D has evolved and encompassed several (albeit fairly closely related) styles of play. They are both fairly flexible games, but Traveller invested a lot more of its page count and conceptual effort into the specific setting, so it has tended to remain there to a higher degree (I guess it also never reached a high level of financial success, so it didn't get nearly the number of spin-off products).
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
When you look at the games coming out a few years down the track (say RuneQuest and Classic Traveller) it seems fairly clear that these were intended to evoke and involve story in a different way from classic dungeon-delving. (Though they didn't necessarily know how to actually pull that off in a design sense.)

RuneQuest was certainly about a different story, but it also had other innovations like consistent handling between combat skills and other skills. Everyone had spells and none of them were the scope of D&D higher level ones so to that extent it might be seen as more balanced between players at the table. Alongside making npcs mechanically identical to PCs something D&D didnt do till 3e? if I recall, which ends up being problematic after pcs become mechanically complex but wasnt too bad at that time.
 

RuneQuest was certainly about a different story, but it also had other innovations like consistent handling between combat skills and other skills. Everyone had spells and none of them were the scope of D&D higher level ones so to that extent it might be seen as more balanced between players at the table. Alongside making npcs mechanically identical to PCs something D&D didnt do till 3e? if I recall, which ends up being problematic after pcs become mechanically complex but wasnt too bad at that time.

Actually, making RQ NPCs was a bitch. Same problem in CoC, which opts instead to go with a much simpler monster format (conveniently a lot of things are 'icky monsters' that you don't interact with EXCEPT to be 'slimed' by them anyway). Still, in both RQ, CoC, and other BRP games, making an NPC is a real chore. You can kinda 'wing it' though. D&D always assumed that there were 'monsters' and 'npcs' as separate things, but they fill overlapping roles in the game. It was always assumed that IN THEORY an 'orc' has all the same sorts of stats as a PC/NPC, just that they don't contribute materially to play, and so can be ignored.

BRP does handle combat skill use the same as other skill use, essentially, and this is also true of Traveller. Truthfully there simply isn't a meaningful equivalent in D&D, since skills don't really exist pre-3e. Still, D&D basically HAS no single central resolution system in its 'classical' form... So maybe not really an 'innovation' of BRP/Traveller so much as just the natural consequence of being systems with a single universal resolution mechanic. TSR, for whatever reason, seems to have eschewed that technique for its entire existence. Later editions of the Marvel Super Heroes game DID actually specify that non-combat tasks used the same chart-based system as combat, but even this game didn't spell that out in early versions. I guess 'Top Secret' and maybe 'Star Frontiers' maybe did? I don't recall too well, not having copies of them and my play experiences being LONG ago...
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Actually, making RQ NPCs was a bitch.
Well I just remembered in 1978 i had an apple IIe, and basic coding skills on hand I wrote up random character generators fairly easily
BRP does handle combat skill use the same as other skill use, essentially, and this is also true of Traveller. Truthfully there simply isn't a meaningful equivalent in D&D, since skills don't really exist pre-3e. Still, D&D basically HAS no single central resolution system in its 'classical' form... So maybe not really an 'innovation' of BRP/Traveller so much as just the natural consequence of being systems with a single universal resolution mechanic.

Wait ? What? circular logic much? having a universal resolution mechanic to simplify the over all system to decrease learning curves and make combat take a similar story context (reduce its supremacy) to skill use was an innovation.
 
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Well I just remembered in 1978 i had an apple IIe, and basic coding skills on hand I wrote up random character generators fairly easily
Sure, I recently found a printout of the BASIC program I wrote in something like 1983 to run on a C64 (also ported it to Amiga) that did 1e characters. I also did a Traveller PC generator of the same basic sort, also in BASIC. None of these systems is SUPER hard to handle, as long as you're willing to go in and add more 'DATA' statements whenever you need another spell or whatever, or just leave some of the more onerous subsystems to the players to do by hand. I think mostly I used mine to handle NPCs anyway. I still have a big thick notebook full of the ones for my big 2e campaign I ran in the early 90's.

Wait ? What? circular logic much? having a universal resolution mechanic to simplify the over all system to decrease learning curves and make combat take a similar story context (reduce its supremacy) to skill use was an innovation.

Sorry if it wasn't said exactly right? lol. Unified resolution system was an innovation of Traveller (though maybe present in some other earlier game, not sure) and RQ/BRP has this as well. So, yes, it WAS an innovation. All I mean is it isn't an innovation of the COMBAT system, specifically. I'd note that even BRP and Traveller have a few 'extra options' that apply in combat that aren't normally present with non-combat, like dodge/parry checks and such. These still follow the normal check rules though, and I'm sure you could say that they could be extrapolated to other analogous situations in either game (IE some sort of opposed actions).
 

pemerton

Legend
there really isn't a very clearly articulated early example of a mechanical plot device in a major RPG, not before the mid-80's anyway (Toon comes to mind, and I think Gangster! maybe had some such elements, both games were published sometime in the mid-80's to my recollection). I think you can certainly argue that Traveller, by eliminating the whole 'character progression' element of play from the mechanics, was TRYING to turn the focus towards RP (You can only advance your character in terms of the fictional narrative, though some of those improvements will translate back to mechanical advantages in terms of better ships, guns, armor, etc).

<snip>

there were also, a bit later, games like 'Skyrealms of Jorune' which were very emphatic about stories and settings being the central focus. These could be seen as incipient story games (even EPT falls into this category, as its setting is really its big thing, the rules are basically just variant OD&D with a few customizations). NONE of them, AFAIK (not a Jorune guru) has actual mechanics or play procedure that give players any sort of dramatic input outside of their characters actual choices in-game.

<snip>

but the essential mechanics [of Traveller] are still D&D-esque in the sense that they fall to the rules to resolve conflict and the player's input is through character choices and actions modulated by the mechanics of skills etc. IN THEORY you might move to the level of a PC using EDU to basically say "Yeah, I know about this type of animal, as a xenobiologist I should know about its reproductive strategy", but that would be followed by a dice roll against 'xenobiology' (and note that even EDU doesn't play a defined role here, though you might get a modifier to the skill check). There's no mechanic for "I invoke my EDU to make up lore about the creature's reproductive strategy that we can use to help us find a way to eradicate it" or something like that. Not even Social Standing has that, although it could be argued to be fairly strongly implied within the stock Imperium setting that the game basically assumes. Still, there isn't a way to even make a check against an ability score directly, the GM would have to just decide for himself if it would work, or else break it down into a detailed process that would involve existing skills.
Well, I'm a great believer in the possibility of what Ron Edwards calls "vanilla narrativism" - that is, "story now" RPGing without player-side mechanics to support it beyond the sorts of action declarations one gets in classic D&D, Rolemaster, etc.

So I think that you can have player-driven, story-focused RPGing without the sort of metagame mechanics you describe. But you need to use procedures that are different from the Gygaxian GM-as-dictator. Taking suggestions is probably the most important. These can be suggestions from the players about world elements (places, NPCs, etc) that need to be settled for the game to go ahead, and that are relevant to their PCs backstories, goals etc; and also suggestions about where the game is going to go next.

With your example of xenobiology, the player can ask "Can we stop it by toying with its reproductive strategy?" And if the GM takes the suggestion, then that means "say 'yes' or roll the dice" - assuming it's an important issue in play (those dame tribbles!) then the GM will call for a roll. If the roll succeeds, the strategy works.

In the context of Traveller, this depends (I think) on taking the lead of the books in setting appropriate difficulties for throws, and allowing appropriate DMs. (Eg the Electronics skill, I think maybe in the revised (ie 1980 rather than 1977) version, includes suggestd DMs for INT and EDU.) In my game, I've defaulted to 8+ for non-straightforward stuff, and 10+ for hard stuff.

As far as rolls against characteristics, I'm mostly following Andy Slack's advice in White Dwarf and using 3D-2 (gives a range of 1 to 16, so even a 1 can succeed and even a 15 can fail). But I think stat checks are relevant only for fairly basic stuff - Xenobiology is going to be more like 10+, +1 if EDU 8+, +2 if EDU A+. The rulebook does encourage the referee to keep track of these rolls and DMs to gradually build up a consistent world. This is very similar to Luke Crane's advice to Burning Wheel referees, that setting difficulties is the most direct way in which the GM establishes the world for the players.

I agree the rules don't make it clear what EDU is for; and MegaTraveller muddies the waters with a whole lot of knowledge skills. Our game follows Classic with no knowledge skills, and we're using EDU as flavoured by PC backstory - so the INT 8/EDU 13 ex-navy guy who never got a commission but is a member of the TAS spent all his salary on TAS membership so he could travel the universe looking for signs of alien life, and his EDU is a doctorate in xeno-archaeology; whereas the two ex-military guys with INT 2/EDU 10 and INT 3/EDU 9 clearly read the manuals very closely, but there EDU isn't going to help them much when xeno-biology is at stake. This is, in effect, similar to a background-flavoured skill system like 13th Age, but done in an informal and consensual basis - which goes back to the importance of taking suggestions from the players. This sort of system won't work well in a competitive/hostile environment where the players see their job as outwitting/out-"rules"ing the GM - but luckily that's not something I have to worry about in my RPGing.

I think you can argue that 2e DOES point GMs in the right direction in its non-mechanical presentation. I could imagine a game that leveraged the rules framework of 2e AD&D pretty well and yet was not focused on setpiece location adventure (ala modules). So, for example you could put the PCs in a milieu like 'You are all nomads roaming the Great Sea of Grass on your trusty lizard mounts' and then allow things to sandbox into tribal conflict, invasion, civilization vs barbarians, etc. It is just not the typical formulation for a D&D game, and you'd have to be willing to accommodate maybe bending some 'rules' of D&D to make it work well. Like changing the way characters are initially equipped, maybe creating more specialized caster spell lists and priest classes, perhaps a couple of specific kits would be handy, etc.
I personally think it is harder than that.

AD&D, incuding in its 2nd Ed incarnation, just doesn't generate characters with the right sort of richness and nuance to make vanilla narrativism easy. An exception is thieves - I've had success running an all-thieves AD&D game, with the focus on petty larceny and hijinks in Critwall and then the City of Greyhawk. Maybe druids or paladins would work too, but it's too hard to get a party of them without tweaking the PC gen rules.

I also think that Oriental Adventures is an exception, because it's PCs do come with comparatively rich backstories and implied capabilitiese. And the non-weapon proficiencies can play a similar role to the one that I described for EDU above. Even here, though, I think it's harder than Traveller: the default check difficulties in OA are absurdly high, which makes it harder to use "say 'yes' and roll the dice"; and if you go with WSG/DSG/2nd ed stat-based proficiencies then there is a different problem - stats come to dominate play, and players have a strong incentive to push the proficiency system into an unnuanced resolution mechanic to end-run around harder checks that would be dictated by thief skills or whatever.

Traveller, if you extrapolate from the example checks given in the books, is just cleaner for this stuff, plus doesn't have the distraction of having to build it onto a wargaming chassis (where combat always gets better but only thieves automatically get better at their other stuff).

I haven't tried vanilla narrativist RQ - I think it would sit between Traveller and D&D, as I don't think it has quite the right skill load-out to get away from the wargaming, but the wargaming is ultra-brutal. (I've GMed a lot of vanilla narrativist Rolemaster - it has the right skill list, and its development system allows players to shape their PC skill load outs, which is a type of "flag-flying" to the GM.)

unlike D&D, Traveller is a very 'gritty' game. It absolutely supposes that the world is entirely realistic. Its combat system for example is actually QUITE realistic, given the limitations of RPGs and their gamist needs. Being shot with a pistol is damned hazardous! Maybe SLIGHTLY less likely to be instantly lethal than in real life, but not by much (IIRC a basic pistol or rifle does about 11 points of average damage, and a PC has about 20 points before instant death, there are no 'critical hits', but a good damage roll on a physically weaker PC could kill them). The point is, it is expected that locations and the elements of society and government will correspond to some imaginable and realistic (at least plausible) pattern. So there will be laws, rules, administrators, economics, and other such things. In a sense these simply ARE the 'challenge' of Traveller.

If you think about it, the typical situation that the rules generate is a motley assortment of ex-military types all huddled aboard some 200 ton Free Trader that can just about make its mortgage payments if the crew is willing to take no pay and not be choosy about what sort of cargo/passengers they haul (passengers who have a finite chance of deciding to make themselves the owners in mid-jump). Their greatest threats are law enforcement, bureaucrats, and the machinations of various nobles and megacorps with whom they might have the misfortune to cross paths. Most of this means negotiating, bribing, duping, concealing, and other such nefarious activities, interspersed with hair-raising instances of death-defying battles, ship malfunctions, and maybe some weird alien encounters or more classic location-based adventures.

<snip>

I described the 'typical party' above, but the game doesn't honestly seem to put that forward as an INTENDED setup, it is just 'what happens when you unwrap the box and start rolling on the charts'. So, in a sense it is a 'looser' game. Frankly, given its focus on a modestly gritty realism, you can quite easily invent variant milieu in Traveller, like a pre-starflight game of planetary exploration (just build TL8 ships, not ENTIRELY realistic, but if you add a few details to the ship rules you can come close enough). You could do a variant game where the PCs are part of an isolated colony with no contact to galactic civilization, perhaps even one with a 'fallen civilization' or something (though now you would have to really hack the chargen rules a bunch, non-trivial but pretty easy to envisage working with say some pre-gens).

I gues the point is, Traveller is a BIT more flexible than D&D, but perhaps more in terms of convention and some characteristics of the milieu than due to any significant rules innovation.
I agree about the default Traveller party, although once you add in Citizens of the Imperium it gets a bit more varied. For me, what is more significant compared to D&D is the implied setting and hence implied challenges. If the default challenge is orcs in a 10' room, pulp movie cultists and chess puzzles, it's hard to build serious story. How does any of that relate to character motivation?

Whereas trying to make a living, getting recruited by terrorists in the restaurant at the Travellers' Aid Soceity, dealing with officials who have actual worlds to govern: that's more promising raw material for buidling something out of, I think.

You can try and add it into D&D, of course, but then you get the problem that PCs have no connection to it by default (due to lack of background/lifepath for most PCs - again, thieves, paladins, druids and monks excepted to various degrees), and they also don't have the mechanical capacity to engage with it via "say 'yes' or roll the dice".

I'd note that even BRP and Traveller have a few 'extra options' that apply in combat that aren't normally present with non-combat, like dodge/parry checks and such. These still follow the normal check rules though, and I'm sure you could say that they could be extrapolated to other analogous situations in either game (IE some sort of opposed actions).
I'm using opposed checks in Traveller. The odds of one 2d6 roll beating another is very slightly better than the odds of rolling 8+, so it seems to work OKI.
 

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