• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

Why Worldbuilding is Bad

I don’t think the distinction you are making here is significant. Kobolds serving Infyrana in Dragon Mountain is far more specific, but it’s just as subject to having to be introduced in play as the basic kovolds serve dragons as general bit of lore. Both are simply concepts or ideas.

If your assessment is that worldbuilding only happens once these elements come up in actual play, and that the GM thinking them up ahead of time, or the group deciding to play in a specific setting with those default assumptions do not actually constitute worldbuilding, then it applies to both examples, the general and the specific.

If my PCs hear mention of kobolds, and they then ask about what they are, they can learn a broad detail or a specific.

Either one is worldbuilding. It establishes the elements of the fictional world and the relationships of those elements to one another.

In my mind there's a HUGE difference between "that which may be true" (things which are included in the genre) and things which are ESTABLISHED to be true. The former are simply potential, the later have assumed canonical status and become incorporated within the narrative which makes up the game.

Now, something could be 'tentatively established' as in it could be RUMORED that a dragon exists which has kobold minions. In this case perhaps kobolds are simply legends within the campaign, but their existence as legends is canonical, and the legend could shape the player's decisions. Still, this is not quite the same as 'we met a kobold and had it for dinner'.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Psion

Adventurer
Imagine my surprise and wandered by the site and saw a green flag indicating a thread I had posted in decades (okay, A decade) ago.

*Sips whiskey and reminisces about the good ol' days.*
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Well, now I'll take [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s side of this discussion. Again, compare WoG with FR. They utilize almost entirely the same lore. They have the same overall cosmology, same lists of creatures, etc. Yet they are not the same world, at all. Sure, "there are armored knights in my world" says SOMETHING, like chunks of hand-made mild steel plate are effective protection, and thus weapons technology is pretty limited. Clearly it says there's some region where a class of people serve as heavily-armored soldiery. Depending on the amount of detail it might define a system of honor, preferred types of weapons and steeds, and possibly even some social details. That still leaves a WIDE field for the actual building of a world! I mean, 'armored warrior with a code of honor' could describe any of 20 different historical societies spanning a period of time as wide as 1000 years or more.

Just because those particular building blocks aren’t very specific doesn’t mean they aren’t building blocks.
 

Hussar

Legend
I guess for me I do draw a distinction between worlds building and setting building. And there is no hard line between them. One shades into the other.

For me, setting is anything you need. You have throat warbler mangroves in your game? Cool. Those need to be defined and in doing so lore will be added to the game. Of course.

However three thousand word essays a la Dragon magazine Ecology of articles are pretty much a waste of time. Fun to read but largely just a waste of time.

Far more useful would be a three thousand word article detailing four or five example encounters.

So no, I do not want a lore less dnd. That’s not what I’m saying. But afaic, things like Forgotten Realms setting books are just a waste of space that would be much better served with practical supplements.
 

Hussar

Legend
Just a point about would D&D be as popular without the world building. I'd offer a counter example: 5e D&D. Arguably the most popular or at least in the top 2 versions of D&D. Yet, the entire 5e line consists of what, 8 campaign length modules, a single (fairly short) setting guide, and a character option book.

Not a lot of world building going on there. It's a far, far more practical approach to the game that we haven't seen since 1e, which, also, had very, very little in the way of world building. Based on evidence, I'd say that versions of the game that delved hard into world building were considerably less successful than versions which focused on more practical supplements.
 

Caliburn101

Explorer
Just a point about would D&D be as popular without the world building. I'd offer a counter example: 5e D&D. Arguably the most popular or at least in the top 2 versions of D&D. Yet, the entire 5e line consists of what, 8 campaign length modules, a single (fairly short) setting guide, and a character option book.

Not a lot of world building going on there. It's a far, far more practical approach to the game that we haven't seen since 1e, which, also, had very, very little in the way of world building. Based on evidence, I'd say that versions of the game that delved hard into world building were considerably less successful than versions which focused on more practical supplements.

Which has been made massively popular by Critical Role (amongst others) and their Tal'Dorei gameworld book flies off he shelves.

Also, the Forgotten Realms is the default world and that already has a great deal of 3rd edition material whose sales are not captured in your consideration as it is 90% cross-compatible.
 

Hussar

Legend
Which has been made massively popular by Critical Role (amongst others) and their Tal'Dorei gameworld book flies off he shelves.

Also, the Forgotten Realms is the default world and that already has a great deal of 3rd edition material whose sales are not captured in your consideration as it is 90% cross-compatible.

But, 90% of the FR material has little or nothing to do with the Sword coast. And it certainly isn't needed to play nor is it particularly even referenced. 2e, 3e and 4e banged out source book after source book and none of those editions came anywhere near what 5e is doing. Now, I'm certainly not going to say that lack of world building is the primary, only or even a main reason. There are all sorts of reasons why 5e is doing so well. But I'd say it's a reason.

I mean, the Tal'Dorei book is sitting about #4000 on Amazon. Respectable, sure. But, not even in the same league as what any of the last 3 WotC adventures are selling. Hoard of the Dragon Queen is selling better and it's 4 years old. Would you say Hoard is "flying off the shelves"?

"Flying off the shelves" for a 3pp, is basically a Tuesday for WotC.
 
Last edited:

Caliburn101

Explorer
But, 90% of the FR material has little or nothing to do with the Sword coast. And it certainly isn't needed to play nor is it particularly even referenced. 2e, 3e and 4e banged out source book after source book and none of those editions came anywhere near what 5e is doing. Now, I'm certainly not going to say that lack of world building is the primary, only or even a main reason. There are all sorts of reasons why 5e is doing so well. But I'd say it's a reason.

I mean, the Tal'Dorei book is sitting about #4000 on Amazon. Respectable, sure. But, not even in the same league as what any of the last 3 WotC adventures are selling. Hoard of the Dragon Queen is selling better and it's 4 years old. Would you say Hoard is "flying off the shelves"?

"Flying off the shelves" for a 3pp, is basically a Tuesday for WotC.

Oh come now, you have no objective proof that 'lack of world building' is a factor in 5th Ed's success. You have at most a feeling coloured by a pre-established point of view.

You also didn't address my main point - that as FR is the default gameworld for 5th Ed. and there is already a huge amount of material out there for it, including all the post-launch sales of pdfs etc. of the 3rd Ed. material from Drivethru rpg being used.

I am a member of the biggest D&D club in the biggest city in the UK, and you see 5th Ed. being played in FR first, Tal'D second and homebrews third. There are no casual 'a setting isn't used' groups. Not one that I have seen at meets or on the group boards.

The title of the thread is "Why Worldbuilding is Bad".

You have rather drifted away from that to say it isn't necessary and 'doesn't add much' based on your significant experience. 5th Edition's success is indeed due to a lot of things, but having it's adventures set in a gameworld is one of them.

I disagree with your contentions based on a lot of my personal experience. We are not going to agree on this, except to say that the game is fine when run short term in an undefined world.

But you always need a world with all that brings with it for a long term campaign that gets the same kind of buy-in the many, many fans have for the CR performances.

You and I are old guard - the new wave of players coming in as never before do not expect a 'popcorn and bubblegum' game from what I have seen - they want immersion.

Arguing that good world-building or setting doesn't make a game more satisfying is kinda illogical. After all, a game without a decent setting with it's attractions and strengths still has every single one of those strengths but much more besides when a good setting is added.

That's just a self-evident fact.

In the end we are all involved in a storytelling with rules hobby. Every campaign is a freeform fantasy novel played out between the members of the group.

When was the last time you read a fantasy novel without a setting, or enjoyed a fantasy story of novel-length without getting into the details of the world and how it affected the drama?

The same things that make a fantasy novel good also make a game good - and that includes an immersive and engaging world for the story to play out in.

In rpg'land, one only has to look at the most successful and enduring games and count how many have a detailed setting or settings front and centre as part of their offering to see this clearly demonstrated.
 
Last edited:

pemerton

Legend
So then what is world building exactly? Lets try and narrow it down.

I'm sure there are a few things that we can agree on, that fit into the world building category. For example, adding a history to your world, would fall under world building in my opinion. A good example of this would be how Game of Thrones has a fictional history, from the very recent (The Mad King) to very long ago (The First Men). When the DM writes a history for his fictional campaign world, I feel this is part of world building.

Do religions fit in the world building category? Or only under specific conditions?

Are any deities that you make up for a homebrew campaign setting, automatically world building?
I'll confine my reply to setting that is for the purposes of RPGing.

If the history, or the religions, don't factor into play - aren't a feature of the actual situations that the PCs find themselves in and hence which the players are engaging with - then I don't think it counts as RPG setting/RPG wourldbuilding - because no world has been built in which RPGing is taking place!

A concrete example: many years ago now (1990 or thereabouts?), I worked on religions for my GH game. I developed an idea which presented the churches of St Cuthbert, Tritherion, Pholtus, Celestian, Fharlanghn and others (some not canonically from GH, like Issek of the Jug) as various denominations within a single religious tradition.

This mattered to the game, as it established a series of setting elements that factored into the way the situation in the City of Greyhawk and neighbouring lands was established. The players understood that there was a common religion riven by theological differences that produced political conflict, and they sometimes exploited that conflict in their action declarations for their PCs. Some ritual aspects of these denominations also mattered in play: for instance, some of the denominations were splinter sects or sub-sects of St Cuthbert's church and so lacked their own clergy, remaining dependent upon the Cuthbertians for liturgical services. At various points the PCs would come upon particular statutes or other ritual paraphernalia which reflected these ritual practices, and draw inferences from them, or use these interdependencies as pressure points (eg blackmailing the Cuthbertian hierarchy with the threat of revealing some of the sects to whom they were providing liturgical services).

Now at this time I was an undergraduate philosophy student, and I wrote up an account of the actual theological differences among these denominations: so Cuthbertian theology rests on common-sense realism; the church of Tritherion and Pholtus have competing, highly intellectualised notions about how ideas (which are sourced in the higher realm) relate to the mundane world (the Tritherion-worshippers being broadly Kantian with hints of Locke; the Pholtus worshippers broadly Platonist, to the extent that their canoncial scripture was called The Theocracy). To the best of my recollection, none of this ever came out in, or mattered to, play. It was me going through a series of intellectual exercise about imaginary theologies which was, really, a chance for me to test my comprehension of the relationships between, and especially the points of disagreement between, the philosophers whose work I was studying at the time.

I just re-read the document (some time between then and now I typed it up from the handwritten original), and I still think it's quite clever. But I don't think it's a RPG setting. It's me, sitting then in a carrel in the University library, and now sitting at my computer, imagining a set of theological disputes that covers the broad terrain and the major moves in the European (pre-20th century) philosophical tradition. The fiction isn't shared.

Yes the world does because you stated that the lore of 4e was default.

<snip>

if everything in the 4e default lore was only a possibility in your world why not state that from the beginning
This is getting into "angels on the head of a pin" territory. But proceeding nevertheless: saying to the gang that I want to GM a "default 4e" game means that I am telling them what cosmology I'm interested in, that we can treat the stuff in the PHB about dwarves having been subjugated by giants, hating orcs, etc, as given. It's not a statement about the metaphysical nature of an imaginary entity ("the gameworld") - it's a statement about expectations, permissions etc at the table.

And it produced the desired result - I got players building PCs with various sorts of connections to the default backstory - Raven Queen worshippers, a refugee from a sacked city wanting to restore the greatness of Nerath, a fey warlock who had entered into a pact after an encounter with Corellon in a forest grove, etc.

Had I wanted to mention orcs at some point, that would not have been controversial. But I never have, and no PC has ever gone looking for any. (It turned out, in our game, that the dwarves of the northern ranges mostly fight against goblins and hobgoblins who worship Bane, not against Orcs who worship Gruumsh.) So does the world contain orcs? Who knows? - it's just never come up. The same is true of some gods (I don't think Avandra has ever come up either) and, as I already posted, some sorts of magical traditions (such as Wardens).

A disposition to allow an element into the gameworld if someone wants it (which is what "let's play a default 4e game" signals) isn't the same thing as actually establishing that the world contains those elements.

I don’t think the distinction you are making here is significant. Kobolds serving Infyrana in Dragon Mountain is far more specific, but it’s just as subject to having to be introduced in play as the basic kobolds serve dragons as general bit of lore. Both are simply concepts or ideas.
This depends a bit on how setting is used at the table - but if Dragon Mountain is actually a place on a map which is, in some sense, canonical, then this looks like the making of a decision to say a certain thing should the nature of Dragon Mountain come up as a topic in play; plus, in all likelihood, a decision to make Dragon Mountain come up as a topic in play.

It doesn't have to be: maybe Dragon Mountain and its inhabitants are as abstracted from the reality of play as my theological musings in my old GH game. But as a matter of practicalities, I think decisions made about particular dragons at particular places with particular kobolds servitors are less likely to have that character.
 

pemerton

Legend
Arguing that good world-building or setting doesn't make a game more satisfying is kinda illogical. After all, a game without a decent setting with it's attractions and strengths still has every single one of those strengths but much more besides when a good setting is added.

That's just a self-evident fact.

In the end we are all involved in a storytelling with rules hobby. Every campaign is a freeform fantasy novel played out between the members of the group.
Actual novelists establish setting as part of the process of writing. There's no reason why that can't be done in RPGing.

A pre-authored setting can undermine what might otherwise be a strength in a game: for instance, it can rule out the possibility of certain actions (for the PCs) which otherwise might have been possible.
 

Remove ads

Top