Advice on helping high level non-flexible casters feel useful versus magic immune creatures

[Raif]

Hey everyone!

As I've continually played 5e, I've so far haven't had the pleasure of coming across a magic immune creature (for example, Tiamat/Rakshasa/other legendary creatures) that can make up an end campaign type fight for high levels (17-20).

I primarily play sorcerers in pretty much every game (i love them, don't hate, and they're all very different from each other). One of the things I noticed is that some of these creatures are pretty much immune to magic below 6th level, leaving only 7/8/9 th level spells. So as someone who is planning such a fight, I found that this is honestly one of my greatest fears - feeling a little useless or non-heroic on these big epic end campaign fights.

The one thing I've seen searching for good answers is: this allows fighters to shine, makes casters have to use buff spells and other things they don't normally think of. However, certain casters can't change their spell lists and are very careful in their selection of spells picking things they've used for the entire campaign (namely, sorcerers, bards, warlocks)

While both of these are true, when it comes to the "endgame" fight, I don't think many people (I'm sure that there are people who do) want to just sit there as a sorcerer/bard/warlock and be like "Welp, I've got 3 spell slots that can affect Tiamat/Vecna so let me just be a haste/polymorph/shield of faith bot, run for cover, and counterspell/dispel. Much heroic, such wow, much fun."

As a DM, how do you make a caster feel useful, heroic, and have fun in this fight? I'm primarily talking about casters who can't change their spell list on the fly, but any caster type is relevant really.

I've thought about letting cantrips work, as they technically scale off of "character power" so they're sort of "as powerful as the character" and are the equivalent of "I hit you with a sword". However, I'm not an experienced DM and would love to hear opinions and techniques that may have worked for you.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Non-magic-immune minions. - Minions are a good idea anyway due to action economy.

Terrain or other features that could be manipulated using the spells that the caster has available. - I would certainly rule that magic immunity doesn't stop rocks thrown by telekinesis or falling because a supporting pillar was just blasted away.

The aforementioned buff spells.

Check on what spells the caster has available. Work out what could be done with them.

Also, foreshadow the fight a couple of levels beforehand if you can. That will allow the caster to pick and swap some spells that might be of more use.

 

[5ekyu]

Depending on the creature and the situation it would seem that illusions and creation type spells might well be able to still apply - things which create an effect separate from it. so the ability to create cover, line of sight blocking, move allies around the field of battle, etc.

However, a lot depends on the magics at the spell-caster's disposal.

This in addition to a common trope of a key item or key event that the caster can fuel with their slots... (think maybe a healing version of the paladin smite slot think in-a-stick.)

 

[Swarmkeeper]

How 'bout going back to basics and breaking out the old Help action to grant advantage to one of the damage dealers in party? You know, greater chance of crits, sneak attacks, etc. It's not sexy, but it's an easy buff.

 

[Dausuul]

Well, since you ask "as a DM," my answer is, "Don't use such creatures as end bosses." Just don't. Fighting something like a rakshasa can be an interesting challenge for a caster, but it can also be really miserable if you don't happen to have the right spells prepared/known (speaking from experience). It's okay to throw that at a party once in a while as a regular encounter, but not for the climax of a campaign.

If you're running a published adventure that has such a thing... I'd be inclined to junk that ability altogether, and give the monster some extra hit points or something to compensate. Try to estimate how much additional damage the casters in the party will deal with the restriction gone.

 

[Hjorimir]

Honestly, I don't. I think trying to track each character's efficacy during encounter design would just be maddening to me as a DM. I'm certainly not saying that a DM shouldn't do this, it's just not part of my thought process. I guess there's a part of me that rejects the idea as it is tantamount to prescribing how the players will overcome a challenge, which can quickly lead to an inflexible DMin style (i.e. Players must do A to overcome challenge B).

All of that said, I've been very flexible with my players when it comes to "morphing" their characters after the fact. If a player comes to me and says they want to swap out a cantrip or feat that they never really use because they aren't enjoying it, I'm like to say go ahead. We're just trying to have fun after all.

 

[toucanbuzz]

...As a DM, how do you make a caster feel useful, heroic, and have fun in this fight?...

I don't.

If I begin down that road, what happens when the boss is weapon-resistant and the fighter feels less useful, or there's a flying boss and the Barbarian feels less useful, or if there is a player who likes to "buff" his friends and doesn't like the idea this is seen as not being useful? Also, my players would call foul if they found out I pulled punches. D&D isn't always fair, and you're not always in a situation you can do everything you're used to. But...

...I do get your point, whether it be facing a werewolf or Tiamat, that without adaptation certain players might be rendered impotent. That's never fun. In that sense, I totally endorse what Cap'n Kobold said: foreshadow the fight a couple levels beforehand. That way, if they don't swap out spells or silver their weapons or whatever, it's on the players' choices.

Now, it might not be as effective when you're a "blaster-caster" to have to use environmental, summon, or buff spells, but a good team player isn't going to worry about how they can shine. They'll worry about how the group can shine, even if it means they take a step back.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Tony Vargas]

If you want to try to make every character feel useful in every challenge, you're going to be fighting the system the whole way. 5e is loosely spot-light balanced, characters are supposed to shine in some circumstances, and fade into the background to give others that chance in others.

If you're thinking about giving the spotlight to certain characters rather than others in the climactic battle, in the theory it's a bigger/brighter/more-memorable spotlight than others, you just might consider giving it the character that's had the least/less-dramatic/not-so-memorable times in the spotlight the whole campaign. And, if you have a non-caster (wouldn't blame you if you've forgotten), it's more likely him than the Sorcerer - and more likely the Sorcerer than most other casters.

 

[Dausuul]

Please note that all this is pretty hypothetical. Almost nothing has "rakshasa immunity" where it just flat-out ignores every spell of level X or lower. As far as I know, it's limited to rakshasa and actual gods (e.g., Tiamat). Even Orcus and Demogorgon don't have it.

There are plenty of monsters that can make life difficult for casters, but there's usually a way around the problem. A beholder's Anti-Magic Cone is a real pain, but you can move to get out of it. A lich's globe of invulnerability can be dispelled (per Sage Advice), and if you don't have dispel magic, you can just gird your loins, grit your teeth, and charge the lich. Once you're within 10 feet, you can cast all the attack spells you want. Against magic resistance and/or Legendary Resistance, most blasting spells still deal half damage on a successful save, and spells with attack rolls instead of saving throws aren't affected. Et cetera.