D&D 5E Can a Critical Hit miss?

[robus]

Technically, in combat, it would be the NPC or monster's Dexterity (Stealth) against the PCs' passive Perception.

Well given that initiative, apparently, hasn't been established, they're not technically under the combat rules so I disagree. The PCs are declaring the action that they are paying direct attention to the area (and really just because they've not hit the "Search" button, doesn't mean they're not actually scanning - i.e. searching - the area) where the shots fired, they're no longer performing a "repetitive task" but are specifically directing their attention to a particular situation. IMHO.

 

[Oofta]

Technically, in combat, it would be the NPC or monster's Dexterity (Stealth) against the PCs' passive Perception. If the NPC or monster was determined to be hidden, the PC could opt to take the Search action in which case it would be a Wisdom (Perception) check versus the monster's Dexterity (Stealth) check result as an action. The PCs' passive Perception check would be the floor.

It sounds like these PCs were undertaking the Search action for free. But it's also not clear whether the NPCs or monsters were actually hidden.

I don't disagree, but is there a reference that an active perception check takes an action? I went to find it and failed my investigation check.

 

[iserith]

Well given that initiative, apparently, hasn't been established, they're not technically under the combat rules so I disagree. The PCs are declaring the action that they are paying direct attention to the area (and really just because they've not hit the "Search" button, doesn't mean they're not actually scanning - i.e. searching - the area) where the shots fired, they're no longer performing a "repetitive task" but are specifically directing their attention to a particular situation. IMHO.

They are necessarily in combat and thus initiative in that scenario by the time PC2 is looking for where the shot came from - by the rules anyway. It's not clear whether the DM was following the rules, however.

I don't disagree, but is there a reference that an active perception check takes an action? I went to find it and failed my investigation check.

Basic Rules, page 72. There's no such thing as an "active perception check" though.

 

[Oofta]

Basic Rules, page 72. There's no such thing as an "active perception check" though.

So under Actions in Combat

Search
When you take the Search action, you devote your
attention to finding something. Depending on the
nature of your search, the DM might have you make
a Wisdom (Perception) check or an Intelligence
(Investigation) check.

So to the OP, assuming the enemies were shifty goblins with a bonus action to hide the way I would have run it:

DM: announces "You hear some noise in the bushes, roll for initiative." You can be in combat even if you don't know where the enemy is and no one has attacked. All it takes is awareness of a threat or the intent to attack. This could have also been run as if the PCs were surprised and not able to take actions (or reactions) until their turn.

PC1: Moves towards the bushes and searches for the enemy

DM: Asks for a perception check.

PC1: gives result - this is a contest. PC 1 Perception vs the goblin's Stealth. The goblins win the contest, and are still hidden.

Goblins: attack PC 1 with advantage. This reveals their location at the moment they fire but they can move and take a bonus action to hide.

If they don't have a bonus action to hide they can still move and the PCs may or may not know exactly where they are. This is kind of up to you and whether or not you think the PCs would know where they are even if they can't be seen. Think of the hide (bonus) action as an action penalty, they're trying to move carefully so as to not make a lot of noise/move bushes in a way that would reveal their location/accidentally step into a gap in the bushes and be seen.

For example, if there's a series of tunnels on the side of the road the goblins could have ducked into the tunnels after firing. The PCs may have even seen them go into the tunnels but would not know where in the tunnels they are.

PC2: Attacks the location they saw the bolts come from. There's nothing there so nothing is hit

Initiative continues as normal.

 

[iserith]

So to the OP, assuming the enemies were shifty goblins with a bonus action to hide the way I would have run it:

DM: announces "You hear some noise in the bushes, roll for initiative." You can be in combat even if you don't know where the enemy is and no one has attacked. All it takes is awareness of a threat or the intent to attack. This could have also been run as if the PCs were surprised and not able to take actions (or reactions) until their turn.

PC1: Moves towards the bushes and searches for the enemy

DM: Asks for a perception check.

PC1: gives result - this is a contest. PC 1 Perception vs the goblin's Stealth. The goblins win the contest, and are still hidden.

The thing is, the DM kind of messed up here by describing the noise. Assuming the noise is related to the monsters, they are by definition not hidden because hidden requires (1) not being clearly seen and (2) being unheard. If there's a noise, they aren't unheard and thus are not hidden. The PCs can pinpoint them without a Search action. A Search action would effectively be a wasted action here when the character can just attack at disadvantage (if within range) due to being effectively blinded.

 

[Oofta]

The thing is, the DM kind of messed up here by describing the noise. Assuming the noise is related to the monsters, they are by definition not hidden because hidden requires (1) not being clearly seen and (2) being unheard. If there's a noise, they aren't unheard and thus are not hidden. The PCs can pinpoint them without a Search action. A Search action would effectively be a wasted action here when the character can just attack at disadvantage (if within range) due to being effectively blinded.

Meh. The way I run it the borderline between combat and not combat is blurry enough I'd allow something like this. The goblins were playing goblin games or whatever they do when we aren't looking when they noticed the PCs approaching and hid. There was no surprise round because neither side was ready for combat but the goblins were far enough away that the PCs couldn't see them. They were close enough to hear them duck into the bushes.

You can't run everything in initiative order and hiding can happen outside of combat. I start combats like this as once in a while (sometimes with the PCs deciding to duck for cover), just depends on the scene I'm setting up.

Then again when it comes to stuff like this I don't always care too much about the letter of the rules.

 

[iserith]

Meh. The way I run it the borderline between combat and not combat is blurry enough I'd allow something like this. The goblins were playing goblin games or whatever they do when we aren't looking when they noticed the PCs approaching and hid. There was no surprise round because neither side was ready for combat but the goblins were far enough away that the PCs couldn't see them. They were close enough to hear them duck into the bushes.

You can't run everything in initiative order and hiding can happen outside of combat. I start combats like this as once in a while (sometimes with the PCs deciding to duck for cover), just depends on the scene I'm setting up.

Then again when it comes to stuff like this I don't always care too much about the letter of the rules.

Unfortunately, we don't have enough information to say one way or another. I would say that the noise is sufficient to remove both surprise and hidden. So if the DM wanted to have surprise and/or hidden, he or she should not have described the noise until after determining the monsters were not hidden (the noise being indicative of a failed Dexterity (Stealth) check perhaps). Hiding can happen outside of combat, as you say, but not when you're making noise.

 

[Satyrn]

Scenario: Party is proceeding down a wooded path at night with torches. Heavy foliage lines the path, which is 30 feet wide. Noise off the side of the path up ahead draws their attention. PC#1 goes up to check it out, is asked to roll Perception and fails. Crossbow bolts are fired out of the dark, heavy foliage and strike PC#1. PC#2 asks if she saw the spot from where the bolts were shot. DM asks for Perception roll and there is a success. PC#2 fires her bow into that exact spot, rolling a natural 20. Unbeknownst to anyone in the party, after firing the crossbow bolts, the two enemies were able to stealth away from that spot (rolled higher on Stealth than any of the party member's Passive Perception).

How do you, as DM, rule that Crit?

It's a miss. It can't hit because there's no one there to hit. It never had a chance to hit.

 

[Oofta]

Unfortunately, we don't have enough information to say one way or another. I would say that the noise is sufficient to remove both surprise and hidden. So if the DM wanted to have surprise and/or hidden, he or she should not have described the noise until after determining the monsters were not hidden (the noise being indicative of a failed Dexterity (Stealth) check perhaps). Hiding can happen outside of combat, as you say, but not when you're making noise.

This kind of gets into philosophy of "when does combat start", and encounter distance which I think can be kind of vague.

Obviously if there is an attack imminent, combat starts. But let's talk about a scenario I could envision without getting caught up in details for a moment.

The adventurers are walking down a road at night, torches in hand or relying on the full moon overhead. There are goblins ahead by the side of the road, but they are in deep shadow and unseen and sitting quietly and for the moment unheard. The goblins are obscured only by darkness.

The goblins see the PCs approaching a moment before they will be seen and scurry into the bushes. Now that they are obscured by the heavy brush they hide.

The PCs heard the movement but did not see the goblins scurrying away because they were not close enough to be visible. The PCs do not know what caused the sound because by the time the PCs are close enough to see, the goblins are hidden in the heavy brush.

This is a pretty typical scene in games and movies, hearing something scrambling about in the darkness but by the time you shine the light or turn around it's gone. Exactly where initiative starts is where you get into more of a gray area and one that I sometimes hand-wave because narrative, flow and scene are more important than the rules.

Anyway, that's how I roll. Rule? Whatever.

 

[jaelis]

This kind of gets into philosophy of "when does combat start", and encounter distance which I think can be kind of vague.

Obviously if there is an attack imminent, combat starts. But let's talk about a scenario I could envision without getting caught up in details for a moment.

The adventurers are walking down a road at night, torches in hand or relying on the full moon overhead. There are goblins ahead by the side of the road, but they are in deep shadow and unseen and sitting quietly and for the moment unheard. The goblins are obscured only by darkness.

The goblins see the PCs approaching a moment before they will be seen and scurry into the bushes. Now that they are obscured by the heavy brush they hide.

The PCs heard the movement but did not see the goblins scurrying away because they were not close enough to be visible. The PCs do not know what caused the sound because by the time the PCs are close enough to see, the goblins are hidden in the heavy brush.

This is a pretty typical scene in games and movies, hearing something scrambling about in the darkness but by the time you shine the light or turn around it's gone. Exactly where initiative starts is where you get into more of a gray area and one that I sometimes hand-wave because narrative, flow and scene are more important than the rules.

Anyway, that's how I roll. Rule? Whatever.

My take on this:
I would have the goblins attempt to stealth into the bushes. If successful, then they remain hidden and initiative starts with a surprise round whenever they decide to attack. If the stealth fails, initiative starts then, since that is when both parties become aware of each other.