D&D 5E Druid spells .... gone?

[TaranTheWanderer]

I've been really excited to play a druid in 5e. Especially circle. I know most people gush over moon druids but, from 3.5, druids had some of the coolest rp and utility spells.

Then I looked at their spells list:

-No warp wood
-No shape wood
-Stone Shape is 4th(!) now and only does 1- 5 foot cube????
-Hallow is no longer a druid spell?
(I guess the Archdruid hired a cleric to sanctify Stonehenge.)
-Control weather is now 8th instead of 7th.

They still get plant growth which is nice.

Most of these spell had very little combat utility but were very useful (although situational) for long campaigns. Like hollowing out a cliff side to give the village protection from the marauding dragon, for example.

Stone shape, for example. They should have kept it as is but raised the level to 4th or, changed it to (almost useless) but kept it at 3rd. Am I the only one disappointed by this? Would you allow these spells back in your campaigns?

 

[jaelis]

Stone shape is pretty strong, I don't think it is out of place at level 4. Part of the issue is that spells in general are less powerful than they were in 3e, pretty sure that was a deliberate decision across the board.

I can see why they removed hallow, it has a strong traditional religious connotation to me. But it would makes sense to have a similar spell that was more nature oriented somehow. But if it fits your view, I think you could add it back to the spell list without any issues.

Warp wood and shape wood, like stone shape, are pretty strong effects. I remember them being kind of an issue in 3e. But I could see a shape wood spell at 4th level, similar to stone shape.

 

[jgsugden]

There are a lot of spells that were great in prior editions that have not yet appeared. Druid is not the only class that has been wishing to see some favorites from prior editions return. There was no Charm Monster until Mordy's.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Stone shape is pretty strong, I don't think it is out of place at level 4. Part of the issue is that spells in general are less powerful than they were in 3e, pretty sure that was a deliberate decision across the board.

I can see why they removed hallow, it has a strong traditional religious connotation to me. But it would makes sense to have a similar spell that was more nature oriented somehow. But if it fits your view, I think you could add it back to the spell list without any issues.

Warp wood and shape wood, like stone shape, are pretty strong effects. I remember them being kind of an issue in 3e. But I could see a shape wood spell at 4th level, similar to stone shape.

Maybe I wasn't using it creatively enough. I remember shape wood being handy to get through doors and stuff, building fortifications. It really shined in mass combat situations but I rarely remember it being overpowered or a 'go-to' spell.

"Stone shape is pretty Strong"

I can't really see the power of a 4th level slot being used to shape 5 feet of stone. There are much better spells at that level. It's situational, at best. And, in 3.5, I don't recall using it in combat ever. But maybe it's because I saw it more of a utility spell. Now that I look at it, you could really reshape the battlefield in a cave or similar circumstance. But that would have been easily solved by making it a ritual or giving it a 1 or 10 minute casting time instead of reducing the area affected. At 4th level, I feel it should have more of an impact.

As far as hallow being a religious spell, druids are based on the Celtic version of a cleric. Religious leaders of an entire culture. Are they supposed to be something different in 5e? Are you just supposed to play a Nature Cleric? What's the point of a druid, then, if they are removing the flavour that made the class what it is?

I suppose it's easy to just add Hallow to their list. But then you have to have a conversation with your DM. Which rubs me the wrong way.

 

[jaelis]

As far as hallow being a religious spell, druids are based on the Celtic version of a cleric. Religious leaders of an entire culture. Are they supposed to be something different in 5e? Are you just supposed to play a Nature Cleric? What's the point of a druid, then, if they are removing the flavour that made the class what it is?

I don't see the dnd druid much as a celtic cleric, more as a guardian of nature. That's how the PHB describes it so I can see why they would base the class design on that. But of course if you want to view them as a type of cleric that is reasonable, and you might want to make a few tweaks to reflect that.

As for wood and stone shape, I've seen the ability to create or destroy structures have a lot of impact. Wood shape also ends naval encounters very quickly. But again YMMV, no reason not to change things for your table. Just promise your DM you won't do anything too creative with them

 

[plisnithus8]

PHB: "Druids revere nature above all, gaining ...powers either from the force of nature itself or from a nature deity. Many druids pursue a mystic spirituality of transcendent union with nature rather than devotion to a divine entity, while others serve gods of wild nature, animals, or elemental forces. The ancient druidic traditions are sometimes called the Old Faith, in contrast to the worship of gods in temples and shrines."

5e druids are not supposed to be 3.5 druids. Druids are a different class than clerics. They don't have the same lore or mechanics as clerics. They don't use divine focuses. They aren't the druids who built Stonehenge either, though their inception came from that idea.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

I don't see the dnd druid much as a celtic cleric, more as a guardian of nature. That's how the PHB describes it so I can see why they would base the class design on that. But of course if you want to view them as a type of cleric that is reasonable, and you might want to make a few tweaks to reflect that.

As for wood and stone shape, I've seen the ability to create or destroy structures have a lot of impact. Wood shape also ends naval encounters very quickly. But again YMMV, no reason not to change things for your table. Just promise your DM you won't do anything too creative with them

Well, wood shape is touch. So, if you want to be on the inside of the boat as its sinking, then I think it's fine. I guess you can turn into a fish.

I guess that's my point. They have punished creativity by limiting/removing the spells. Making them very narrow in their utility. Increasing Casting time would have removed the in-combat usefulness but still maintained some of the utility.

I see Druids more as Native American/Celtic Shaman than 'guardians of nature'. Which is what they were originally in 1st edition. Hence their heavy focus on holly and oak and all the other 'sacred' material components they use(d). It's too bad they decided to get rid of that flavour.

But now I see why people like moon druids more in this edition.

Well, thanks for the replies. My excitement for playing a druid has, sadly, been curbed.

 

[Shiroiken]

Maybe I wasn't using it creatively enough. I remember shape wood being handy to get through doors and stuff, building fortifications. It really shined in mass combat situations but I rarely remember it being overpowered or a 'go-to' spell.

It was a powerful utility spell, that would be almost on part with Stone Shape. I could see a homebrew one, exactly like Stone Shape (replacing wood for stone) at one level lower. There are hundreds of spells that didn't make it into 5E from earlier editions, and Shape Wood and Warp Wood are pretty niche spells. I doubt they'll ever receive an official version. A friend of mine got Elminster's Guide to Magic, which is a 3PP that updated a lot of older spells into 5E (the balance on a few spells is questionable, however).

"Stone shape is pretty Strong"

I can't really see the power of a 4th level slot being used to shape 5 feet of stone. There are much better spells at that level. It's situational, at best. And, in 3.5, I don't recall using it in combat ever. But maybe it's because I saw it more of a utility spell. Now that I look at it, you could really reshape the battlefield in a cave or similar circumstance. But that would have been easily solved by making it a ritual or giving it a 1 or 10 minute casting time instead of reducing the area affected. At 4th level, I feel it should have more of an impact.

You're not being creative enough then. In Ghost of Dragonspear Castle (a playtest adventure released with 5E), we used Stone Shape to close a portal to Hell, by creating a wall 1/16" from the portal. It took 4 castings to completely cover it (10x10), but it prevented us from having to close it the main way (human sacrifice). Any door in a dungeon can be sealed shut by raising up a section of stone to create a wedge (yes, the door can be broken down... it's not perfect).

The only major complaint I have with it, is that it's not a ritual. I'm sure, however, that would have busted it beyond recognition (especially for construction).

As far as hallow being a religious spell, druids are based on the Celtic version of a cleric. Religious leaders of an entire culture. Are they supposed to be something different in 5e? Are you just supposed to play a Nature Cleric? What's the point of a druid, then, if they are removing the flavour that made the class what it is?

The classes in 5E are (sadly) different in fluff than prior editions. The paladin is by far the most unrecognizable (any alignment, and no god required), but the Druid has been changed quite a bit as well. The druid is now basically a shaman class dedicated to the power of nature; any resemblance to the Celtic druids is coincidental. These fluff changes have been reflected in the crunch of the game, since 5E doesn't divorce them the way 4E did.

I suppose it's easy to just add Hallow to their list. But then you have to have a conversation with your DM. Which rubs me the wrong way.

You may not be super happy with 5E then, because unlike the last 2 editions of the game, it is DM driven. The DM can add, remove, or change anything they like (or don't like) with impunity (so long as they still have players willing to play in the game). People who love RAW will have a harder time with this, since the game also deliberately leaves gaps for the DM to fill in with rulings (stealth). The biggest advantage of this is that 5E is meant to be house-ruled and home-brewed as much as desired, so that adding, changing, or removing things usually helps the game, rather than hurt it.

 

[Mistwell]

I agree warp wood and shape wood should be in the game. Perhaps as a single spell (maybe with one of those as an upcasting effect).

 

[jaelis]

-Control weather is now 8th instead of 7th.

Should add, I agree with you here. Not even sure it is worth being 7th level.