Arguments and assumptions against multi classing

cbwjm

Seb-wejem
Part of me would want to multiclass a cleric into warlock just because the "God" will take away my powers. Guess I'm just a 1st level warlock with some extra proficiencies and hit dice now. It would be even better if I was the only one with any real healing or raise dead abilities.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I say more power to you. However, if you cling too tightly to your dictionary and the characters you have seen before, you are going to miss out on a lot. In fact, if the only barbarians allowed are Conan with a different name and hair color, burn out is a real possibility if you are long in the hobby. If you are a DM, you are going to straightjacket players with too much rigidity.

Except that I have repeatedly said that I just require things to make sense and gave multiple examples of how you could go about creating an unusual barbarian. So no, there isn't any sort of straightjacket or too much rigidity in my game. I just don't play things so loose with definitions that they lose virtually all meaning.
 

5ekyu

Hero
Eh, whatever floats your boat in the worlds you create. If I am running a world with active spell/ability-granting Powers, just because a player says he will add a level of cleric to his existing class, does not always mean the deity he chose will accept him enough to give him the power he wants. Or if a cleric wants to try adding a level of warlock, you better believe the deity he follows will know about it and there is a good chance he would become an ex-cleric. And yes, I homebrew rules for that based on 1E and 2E AD&D.

Whether people like it or not, I do not always run using the 5e goal of anyone can be anything and everyone gets a gold star just for participating. To paraphrase a quote from a certain movie: in a world where everyone is special, no one will be.
Nowhere, not once did I say or imply just because player wants turns into the mocs go along with it.

Guess someone is sensitive or defensive.

That's why I listed explicit cases where divine and patron were in sync thematically or even straight up allies - first one patron is minion of the divinity.

If you in your games choose to limit your divinities sp that they cannot use minions as intermediaries to provide different types of abilities to their worshippers, that's on you and of course you can have your divinities as shackled and limited and held back as you choose.

But for me, my nods have more options than the, especially the ones called gods.
 

5ekyu

Hero
"To paraphrase a quote from a certain movie: in a world where everyone is special, no one will be."

Since we are talking about PCs here, not the whole world of people, all I can say is I never set as a goal when I gm "not all of my pcs can be special"

Quite the reverse actually.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Yet you blithely list "clerics" while having no problem ignoring that "real world" clerics have absolutely nothing to do with the D&D cleric class, nor has the word cleric ever aligned with the D&D class.

They absolutely do have something to do with the D&D cleric class. A real world cleric is a priest of a god or God. A D&D cleric is a priest of a god. Oh my! It's the same!!

So if you are expecting to retain any credibility, then I expect that you will immediately remove any clerics from your game. Yet you haven't been arguing that.

Why would I do that? They directly correspond to to real world priests. The word cleric evokes that image and it holds up.

Which means you are willing to allow the D&D context to impact the meaning of the word "cleric." Your unwillingness to do the same with "barbarian" is a crystal clear demonstration that this is an obsessive personal bias rather than a cogent, reasoned point.

I give the exact same leeway to both. Both correspond to real world imagery, yet also have in game mechanical differences. It's not my fault if you can't understand that.

And if you hadn't already sacrificed credibility, this line would absolutely kill it. You mention how barbarian (has to) correspond to "real world equivalents", and immediately proceed to list Conan? Seriously? As if anything in the Conan books is representative of "real world" barbarian cultures?

I can't believe you've never heard of Conan, a real world book about barbarians that Gygax and others drew from. Drawing from it is no different than drawing on other myths for wizards. You should Google Conan and learn something.

And for the record, there have been many times that groups of poor, homeless people have been described as living in "barbaric" conditions.

So what. First, describing something as barbaric in conditions just likens it a bit to how barbarians lived. Second, people misuse that term and many others a lot. Like calling someone who rescued a cat from a branch a hero. You probably watch the news a lot. They are notorious for playing up words incorrectly in order to make things seem more dramatic than they are.

Ok... so we know your games will not include clerics and non-middle eastern barbarians. (And I haven't even approached the issues with bards, druids, et al.)...

Only because of your inability to understand what is being discussed here. If you spend some time at it, you might understand and be able to give a response to what I'm saying, and not what you want me to have said. Just about everything in your post is waaaaay off as a response to me.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
For your consideration .... Disintegrate v. Wildshape.

Not only was it the best ever, but its awesomeness increased after the rules were clarified, and people STILL ARGUED.

That's ... well, that's the forum for you.

And as it turned out in the Sage Advice, I was right about RAW. ;)
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Although the question was not aimed at me, I hope you won't mind if I provide my take on it.

I consider the fluff of the class to be up to the player (within the constraints set by the DM's opinion of what fits in the setting) based on implication from the text in the PHB (and what it doesn't say), my experience with the D&D product across multiple editions, and a comparison with other game systems. I fully acknowledge that my interpretation is not the only one: the examples below are intended to explain the source of my interpretation, not to try to prove that my interpretation is the best one.

From the PHB:

Page 11: "You also invent the personality, appearance, and backstory of your character." If the personality, appearance, and backstory described in the class fluff was meant to be a stricture, rather than a suggestion, I would expect this quote to instead say "you invent the personality, appearance, and backstory of your character within the boundaries set by your choices in the steps listed below". The lack of such limiting language along with the placement of such an expansive directive to "invent" in the very first paragraph of character creation suggest to me that the context of character creation is one of player-driven invention.

Page 11: "Or you might be more interested in an unconventional character, such as a brawny rogue who likes hand-to-hand combat...". There is no mention of brawny rogues anywhere in the rogue class fluff. Instead, the fluff explicitly says that "rogues prioritize cunning over brute strength" (PHB 94). We know that brawny rogues are explicitly allowed by the text on page 11. Since the rogue fluff text does not make allowances for brawny rogues, I conclude that it is reasonable to infer that the class fluff text is more likely to be a series of examples and possibilities rather than strictures.

Page 11: "Class broadly describes a character's vocation, what special talents he or she is most likely to employ when exploring a dungeon, fighting monsters, or engaging in a tense negotiation". This passage says nothing about class determining personality, appearance, or backstory, even though most of the classes include fluff text that describe those things. Because they are uniquely emphasized in the introduction to choosing a class, I infer that that the "special talents" in the class description are more fundamental to each class than the fluff.

Page 45: "Class shapes the way you think about the world and interact with it and your relationship with other people and power in the multiverse. A fighter, for example, might view the world in pragmatic terms of strategy and manuevering, and see herself as just a pawn in a much larger game." (Emphasis added.) The key word here is "might", which strongly implies that there are other possibilities. Also, there is no directive to see each class's entry for specifics (and the specific example given isn't found in the fighter class description). So while class is broadly relevant to how you interact with the world, the soecifics appear to have been left up to the player.

Page 46: The first paragraphs of the Barbarian class fluff describe three example barbarians, only two of which are tribal. The rest of the fluff goes on to present a very tribal-centric description, which, if the fluff is mandatory, creates a contradiction with the non-tribal dwarf character that is explicitly allowed. This suggests to me that the fluff isn't intended to be mandatory.

Page 51: The first paragraphs of the bard description describe three possibilities: "scholar, skald, or scoundrel". Yet the "Learning from Experience" section describes bards only as entertainers, going so far as to describe that they "liv[e] on the gratitute of audiences". If you interpret the fluff as rules text, would also have to be entertainers (and live on gratuities), even though that is in tension with the idea of scholar or skald bards. It seems more reasonable to me to treat the fluff text as suggestions, in which case the contradiction vanishes.

Page 82: "Whatever their origin and their mission, paladins are united by their oaths to stand against the forces of evil." I see no way that quote can be rules text, because it contradicts other rules (the subclass choices) that permit paladins that haven't sworn oaths against evil. A clear example like this of fluff text that can't plausibly be a rule I believe supports the inference that fluff text isn't a set of rules in the first place.

Page 94: (See discussion for page 11 and pages 163-164.)

Pages 105-106, 108-109: This one is independently controversial, but I would note the tension between some of the text (arguably) assuming warlocks are obligated to their patrons and the possibility of Great Old One patrons to be unaware of their own warlocks. This suggests that the fluff text is not intended to be a stricture--if it we're, presumably more emphasis would have been put on avoiding apparent contradictions.

Pages 163-164: The multiclassing optional rules dramatically expand the number of character permutations, and include explicit rules on how to merge the mechanics of each class. There is no mention whatsoever about how to merge the fluff, even though the fluff is even more of a contradiction in many cases. For example, if class fluff was a binding stricture, a multiclass barbarian/rogue would be required to prioritize cunning over brute strength (PHB 94) which interferes with taking advantage of the barbarian's strength-based class abilities. Because the multiclass rules go into detail on class mechanics, but ignore class fluff, I think it is reasonable to infer that the class fluff must not require rules to reconcile, which it would if the fluff was itself a rule.

Broadly speaking, the language of the class fluff suggests to me possibilities rather than strictures. Where multiple options are explicitly provided (e.g. scholar, skald, scoundrel for bard on PHB 51) I read the language as inclusive rather than exclusive. By contrast, the mechanics sections use more definitive language

Comparison to Recent Editions:

Particularly since recent previous editions were quite explicit about the distinction between rules and fluff, had the designers intended the fluff text to be equivalent to rules text, I would have expected them to be quite blatant about saying so. It is true that 5e lacks the explicitness of recent editions in saying that fluff and rules are distinct. But I think it is more plausible that this lack implies a desire to make it easier for DMs to decide to enforce fluff as sacrosanct at their tables, rather than an unspoken 180 degree reversal from the idea that fluff is mutable.

Comparison to Other Systems:

If the designers had intended fluff to be sacrosanct, they could have been much more explicit about limiting player choices to those presented in the fluff text. Other games do this. For example, for Urban Shadows, after choosing an archetype, you pick your character's personality from a list of three class-specific, one-word adjectives. By contrast, see the broad language in the 5e PHB above about player invention suggests much more freedom.

Based on all of the above, I infer that class fluff is not intended by the designers to be rules text, and instead merely as possibilities and suggestions. DMs are, of course free to change that at their table, and the designers made it easier to do so in this edition.

Here's the thing. All of that is subject to.

Page 4 of the DMG: "The D&D rules help you and the other players have a good time, but the rules aren't in charge. You're the DM and you are in charge of the game." That includes anything in the PHB.

Page 4 of the DMG: "The world is yours to change as you see fit and yours to modify as your explore the consequences of the players' actions." That includes any fluff dealing with classes, and would also include any fluff the players come up with for classes. It would also included the PCs' backgrounds as they are part of the game world.

The DM has a great deal of power, so he has to be careful not to abuse it.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Ok, I'll bite:

The Strongest Man in the World became too proud and (insert some god) struck him down with debilitating joint pain. He can barely lift a mug of beer without experiencing crippling agony. So he doesn't.

That concept doesn't work with the game mechanics, though. Your phrase "So he doesn't." implies that he can, but he can't, because he only has a 5 strength.

The Strongest Man in the World accidentally killed (insert somebody he loved). He swore an oath to never use his great strength again.

See above.

What happens if the PC is charmed or dominated and the NPC(who doesn't know the backstory reasons for the PC's choice) and required to use that visibly tremendous strength that each of those PCs possess? Those concepts are mechanically broken. Much like your 5 int geniuses.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Because the people I game with have more fun when there is some challenge outside of combat in the game. Gotta have those role-playing opportunities, after all. And what someone wants to do with their character can turn into a quest for the whole party. But I think this has been pointed out before: mining a character's background or future plans for gaming ideas.

I was asking specifically about a cleric adding a level of warlock. Why do you play that as being something impossible in your world?
 

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