Banishing Eldritch Blast

[5ekyu]

I honestly just see Eldritch Blast as the Warlock's normal attack, especially when he specializes on it.

I mean sure, my fighter uses his normal attack most of the time during combat, does that mean I need to nerf it so he also uses Grapple, Shove, Help and other available actions? Nope.

My rogue also uses sneak attack pretty much all the time. It also deals much more damage than his normal attack, so there's no reason for the rogue to not use it. Does that mean I need to banish it? Nope.

yeah - i always make sure to try and describe a warlock (specifically the Eb focused ones but others too) as essentially "an arcane archer alternate" or "an arcane fighter" and clarify that it seems inevitably that the warlock mechanics drive them to one kind of action repeated - not what one would expect a "full caster" to be and point out the warlock is not a full caster.

if they go EB they are basically archer-with-tricks or hexblade they are melee-with-tricks etc.

Soon as the rogue complians that they use sneak attack too much and want more greataxe flavor before i go blaming the **rapier** for the problem that player is having.

 

[clearstream]

In my PHB eldritch blast fires one d10 bolt per tier.

Sorry, I was thinking about tier 3, for the sake of comparison. That obfuscated my point, but the damage advantage to Blast is true at any tier.

At tier-1 thats a to-hit roll out to 120' for avg 5.5.

I think it is more, because Agonising Blast is a must take. So we have 5.5+3=8.5 at tier 1, versus 6.5 for Toll. In play, Eldritch Blast has more up-time that shorter ranged attacks.

Toll the dead is only 60' with wis save vs to-hit (pretty good for wide variety of foes) and after any dmg is a d12.

I agree with this aspect of Toll, and considerations like this are a big part of what motivates me to want to broaden viable strategies for Warlock.

As for any warlock class feature - as soon as you are throwing that in you have left the building as far as comparing "cantrips". You are now comparing classes.

I think if I would ignore something that all Warlocks in my experience have taken, then sure. That doesn't feel like the right comparison to me, because I'm focused on what is happening in play at the table.

If you are really wanting to argue that EB is the most damaging cantrip **for warlocks that sink invocations into boosting it" then yes, thats the case. But all you are stating is "the warlock has class abilities that boost EB and not other cantrips" and thats really not news or something that needs changing, is it? Its certainly not a problem with THE CANTRIP that the class adds stuff to it, right?

Yes, I am arguing that. Sinking one invocation into it makes it the most damage cantrip, on top of the range, the separate bolts, and the force damage type. Letting Warlocks apply their "Blast" invocations to all single-target damage cantrips. Would that be OP?

 

[Blue]

The game's not all about DPS.

This statement is true, but meaningless when the context is specifically a conversation about how damaging a cantrip is. That's the point under discussion.

For all of the casters outside the warlock, they have a lot of ability to adjust for a particular encounter in terms of either using a lot of slots or preserving the slots and using more cantrips. A warlock for most of their career only has two slots per short rest. Roughly two slots per two combat encounters, plus any non-combat usage they want in-between. That means that they'll be doing lots of cantrips every fight, including the tougher battles where other casters can nova. Having wimpy cantrip damage for all but ~1 action per fight is boring and doesn't feel like you care contributing. Combat takes a good amount of session time - being able to feel like you are contributing is important.

 

[clearstream]

This statement is true, but meaningless when the context is specifically a conversation about how damaging a cantrip is. That's the point under discussion.

For all of the casters outside the warlock, they have a lot of ability to adjust for a particular encounter in terms of either using a lot of slots or preserving the slots and using more cantrips. A warlock for most of their career only has two slots per short rest. Roughly two slots per two combat encounters, plus any non-combat usage they want in-between. That means that they'll be doing lots of cantrips every fight, including the tougher battles where other casters can nova. Having wimpy cantrip damage for all but ~1 action per fight is boring and doesn't feel like you care contributing. Combat takes a good amount of session time - being able to feel like you are contributing is important.

You've put this really well. It is exactly that combination of few spell slots plus a single really strong cantrip. Eldritch Blast overshadows all the rest so that it's rare or never that the Warlocks ever use them.

My thinking here is not at all about nerfing Warlock, but about broadening options. Could adding invocation benefits to any single-target damage cantrip do that?

 

[5ekyu]

Sorry, I was thinking about tier 3, for the sake of comparison. That obfuscated my point, but the damage advantage to Blast is true at any tier.


I think it is more, because Agonising Blast is a must take. So we have 5.5+3=8.5 at tier 1, versus 6.5 for Toll. In play, Eldritch Blast has more up-time that shorter ranged attacks.


I agree with this aspect of Toll, and considerations like this are a big part of what motivates me to want to broaden viable strategies for Warlock.


I think if I would ignore something that all Warlocks in my experience have taken, then sure. That doesn't feel like the right comparison to me, because I'm focused on what is happening in play at the table.


Yes, I am arguing that. Sinking one invocation into it makes it the most damage cantrip, on top of the range, the separate bolts, and the force damage type. Letting Warlocks apply their "Blast" invocations to all single-target damage cantrips. Would that be OP?

Then the problem is *not* the thing you are kicking out of the game but the feature that is modifying it.

The rapier is not needing to be banned because of the sneak attack damage it gets, right?

So, thats my point.

Instead of banning Eldritch blast change the feature so that its working with Eldritch blast in a way you find acceptable.

Change the feature to "once per turn" not "once per die" if the "per attack" one bolt vs three bolts issue is a problem for your warlock happiness quotient.

Expanding the Agonizing et al to cover other types of cantrips is to me not a problem - after all - the blade pact benefits apply to more than one weapon type right?

Maybe have a second invocation that allows you to apply the various EB boosts to other cantrips - like how you can take Improved pact weapon and gain ranged weapons to conjure up - etc


but banning eldritch blast from everybody else because the warlock makes it not work how you like seems like blaming the rapier for the sneak damage preventing all those greataxe rogue concepts from being used.

 

[5ekyu]

This statement is true, but meaningless when the context is specifically a conversation about how damaging a cantrip is. That's the point under discussion.

For all of the casters outside the warlock, they have a lot of ability to adjust for a particular encounter in terms of either using a lot of slots or preserving the slots and using more cantrips. A warlock for most of their career only has two slots per short rest. Roughly two slots per two combat encounters, plus any non-combat usage they want in-between. That means that they'll be doing lots of cantrips every fight, including the tougher battles where other casters can nova. Having wimpy cantrip damage for all but ~1 action per fight is boring and doesn't feel like you care contributing. Combat takes a good amount of session time - being able to feel like you are contributing is important.

I haven't seen anybody disputing that the damage for warlocks using Eb is not better than warlocks using other cantrips. But the problem is not that the cantrip is better than others - its that the warlock is built to focus on (or enable you to choose to focus on...) the EB.

I have yet to see ANY Warlock build that gets you the full caster experience or even close to it. So, all the comparisons of how they work vs clerics, wizards, sorcerers etc is chasing something they really are not built for.

Its a "magically enhanced" specialist - bot a caster in the traditional sense. I tend to view it as more in common to the Ek and AT than anything else *when and if* you decide to focus on DPS as your go-to.

If i could make a change to warlock, it would be a rank-5 (or X) invocation called "Rite of Bargaining" that would enable you to at each short rest pick one rank lower-than-x invocation but with the possibility of a cost. I think you could see a lot of the various "good at this" invocations being used if they were not locked in for an entire level.

 

[Rya.Reisender]

It's true that Agonizing Blast is what creates the damage imbalance here, not the spell itself. But you have this issue with a lot of feats that only improve one particular action.

I feel like make everything work with everything is not particularly more fun than a player specializing on something.

It's not even a Warlock-only issue. Your Wizard subclass also makes spells of a certain school more useful than the other spells.

But as said I don't even see it as an issue at all. Eldritch Blast is just that warlock's normal attack. It's not the only thing he can do. He can also use his ~6 spell slots (assuming 2 short rests) at the right time. He can shove or grapple. He can look around to find hidden enemies. He can try to negotiate using his high charisma or influence enemies in other ways. Hell, he can even apply Eldritch Blast in different ways. He probably has Repelling Blast too when he focuses on EB. Can do cool things with that. And there are plenty of cantrips that are useful out of combat too where Eldritch Blast doesn't help at all (well technically, EB with Repelling Blast is even useful out of combat).

 

[TwoSix]

Yes, I am arguing that. Sinking one invocation into it makes it the most damage cantrip, on top of the range, the separate bolts, and the force damage type. Letting Warlocks apply their "Blast" invocations to all single-target damage cantrips. Would that be OP?

Considering that eldritch blast is the best cantrip in the game without any invocation support (as you said, high range, force damage, and the ability to multi-attack), I don't see how giving the other cantrips the same benefits via invocation could possibly be considered OP.

If you really want to help out other cantrips without removing Eldritch Blast, maybe make it so that Agonizing Blast gives +Cha to damage per die of cantrip damage. EB is still slightly better, but the other cantrips will give a better chance of big hits (at the cost of whiffing more often).

 

[FrogReaver]

How strong would it be to change agonizing blast from charisma modifier damage per attack to tier * cha mod damage once per turn when you deal damage with an attack or can trip?

 

[Charlaquin]

That's fair, but unless you have an ally with Sentinel or Polearm Master, there's nothing stopping that enemy from running right back in the Warlock's face, especially if they move faster than 30ft.

That’s why you hit them with as many blasts as you can, add in Lance of Lethargy from XGtE to slow them by 10 feet, and use your own moment to widen the gap.

Also, this assumes there's room. Tight corridors, pit traps, fighting in water... all things that may negate the benefit of Repelling Blast.

Very true. Which is why Evard’s Black Tentacles is one of my favorite spells on a Warlock. Between that and Eldritch Blast with Repelling Blast, Lance of Lethargy, and Grasp of Hadar, you can really manipulate the battlefield and lock down a bunch of enemies at once.

God, I love Warlocks.