General Fantasy RPG question regarding game time

gamerprinter

Mapper/Publisher
I see once per day, as once per 24 hour period, not how much daylight or nightlight is involved - the sun has nothing to do with it.

What happens when the adventuring party is deep underground - nobody can see the sun or the sky.
 

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Dessert Nomad

Adventurer
It depends on how the recharge is supposed to work. A lot of items like 5e wands are made to have a limited number of uses per adventuring day to represent that they have some power that can be used up and recharges fairly rapidly without any special materials. For those items, tying them directly to rests (long rests in 5e terms, overnight rest in other games) or to simple ticking of a clock works fine. They're not mythically tied to anything, they just recharge their power over some amount of time, and the 'once per day' is really a bookeeping convenience and not fundamental to how the device works. Other items or abilities are meant to be mystically tied to something like 'the rising of the sun' or 'the fall of night', in which case either the item creator (as in the writer, not the in-game manufacturer) or DM has to abjudicate how they work in areas where this doesn't actually occur on a 24-hour cycle. Note that this doesn't require a round world, you run into the same problem going to planes where there isn't a day/night cycle or any direct influence from a particular world's sun.

Not sure what the existence of 'portable timepieces' has to do with it powers recharging though - a device that needs X time or Y trigger to recharge will just recharge on that cycle as part of the world even if the players don't have a way to tell time with them. The recharge cycle actually might be a handy, if unintentional tool for timekeeping. Also, real world pocket watches were around in Europe from the 1400s, and reasonably common by the 1500s, and self-contained mechanical clocks date back to the 1300s. Meanwhile the full plate armor that's routinely seen in D&D only dates back to the 1400s. This means that even ignoring the possibility of magical clocks or gnomes or dwarves have more advanced clockwork than humans, in historical terms portable timekeeping was basically contemporary with the usual armor technology. The 1e 'great net equipment list' includes a 20 pound water clock costing 1000gp, which seems reasonably portable and 'adventurer affordable' (certainly workable on a ship, wagon, or portable hole), so for at least some versions of D&D portable timekeeping is standard.
 

Greenfield

Adventurer
It depends on how the recharge is supposed to work. A lot of items like 5e wands are made to have a limited number of uses per adventuring day to represent that they have some power that can be used up and recharges fairly rapidly without any special materials. For those items, tying them directly to rests (long rests in 5e terms, overnight rest in other games) or to simple ticking of a clock works fine. They're not mythically tied to anything, they just recharge their power over some amount of time, and the 'once per day' is really a bookkeeping convenience and not fundamental to how the device works.
How the device works? It works the way the rules say it does. I mean, it's not like there really are magic wands around. In 5e that recharge time may mean "After a long rest". It may not. A person might get powers back after they rest, but since items don't "rest" per se, it's kind of hard to rationalize it that way.

In Pathfinder and 3.* editions, Clerics renew their spells at a "specific time", with examples like "At sunrise" given in the rules.

Player's Handbook page 32 said:
Clerics do not acquire their spells from books or scrolls, nor do they prepare them through study. Instead, they meditate or pray for their spells, receiving them through their own strength of faith or as divine inspiration. Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells. Typically, this hour is at dawn or noon for good clerics and at dusk or midnight for evil ones. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a cleric can prepare spells. A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list (page 183), provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.
(Emphasis mine). So being tied to something like sunrise or sunset isn't arbitrary, and it isn't my invention, it's in the rules and it's pretty specific. Equally specific is that it's not tied to rest, long, short or otherwise.

Not sure what the existence of 'portable timepieces' has to do with it powers recharging though - a device that needs X time or Y trigger to recharge will just recharge on that cycle as part of the world even if the players don't have a way to tell time with them. The recharge cycle actually might be a handy, if unintentional tool for timekeeping. Also, real world pocket watches were around in Europe from the 1400s, and reasonably common by the 1500s, and self-contained mechanical clocks date back to the 1300s.
The Balance wheel, necessary for any kind of reliable watch, wasn't invented until 1755. Its precursor, the Tompion regulator, was invented in 1675.

Queen Elizabeth was known to have a pocket watch in the mid 1500s, but it operated badly, and was so expensive that only the nobility could afford one. So no, pocket watches weren't "commonly available" in the 1500s, and wouldn't be actually workable for a century after Elizabeth took the throne.

Meanwhile the full plate armor that's routinely seen in D&D only dates back to the 1400s. This means that even ignoring the possibility of magical clocks or gnomes or dwarves have more advanced clockwork than humans, in historical terms portable timekeeping was basically contemporary with the usual armor technology. The 1e 'great net equipment list' includes a 20 pound water clock costing 1000gp, which seems reasonably portable and 'adventurer affordable' (certainly workable on a ship, wagon, or portable hole), so for at least some versions of D&D portable timekeeping is standard.
A water clock is portable? Like the hour glass it depends on being kept upright (so carrying it in a pack is out), but has the additional problem that you can't jostle it significantly: It will spill or slosh if carried on, say, horseback. And if you've ever carried a pack you know that 20 pounds is a significant chunk of weight to add to your already full pack full of food and supplies.

Back to the main topic though, item recharging may or may not be tied to a celestial event. DM's call. But Clerics getting their power is. They can't do their "prayer and meditation" thing whenever they get around to it. Taken literally, if it's supposed to happen at "sunrise", it happens at sunrise, and if the Cleric misses it for whatever reason, then they missed it and have to wait for it to come around again. But whether it's tied to something like the actual rising (or setting) of the sun is for the DM and player to work out when the character is created. If it's at a particular hour, say 07:17 am (because of its theological significance), and you're someplace where you can't see the sky, or you're in the Arctic and it's overcast, or on the Plane of Shadows (where it's always twilight), then the character really needs to know the time, and that's where my reference to a "portable timepiece" comes into play.

On a somewhat lighter historical note, during the American Civil War watches were valued, but expensive. A professor Thomas Alexander (from Columbia University, if I recall correctly) came up with a battlefield alternative. He developed a chemical mixture that, once applied to a piece of cloth, would slowly change color over time. That way groups of men could coordinate maneuvers with nothing more exotic than a scrap of rag tied around their arm.

Don't tell me that you've never heard of Alexander's rag time band? :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ni6vV9heJhM
 
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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
How the device works? It works the way the rules say it does. I mean, it's not like there really are magic wands around. In 5e that recharge time may mean "After a long rest". It may not. A person might get powers back after they rest, but since items don't "rest" per se, it's kind of hard to rationalize it that way.

In Pathfinder and 3.* editions, Clerics renew their spells at a "specific time", with examples like "At sunrise" given in the rules.
I've always had it that "daily" stuff resets at midnight when it can and every 24 hours when they're at, say, one of the poles where time zones etc. are a fleeting concept.

Provlems arise, however, when there is no normal sense of time because they're off-plane and-or time is otherwise doing funny things. Here I/we usually just somewhat wing it, knowing the characters' internal body clocks will still give them a vague idea of when it's time to sleep; and so things just reset when they sleep.

So being tied to something like sunrise or sunset isn't arbitrary, and it isn't my invention, it's in the rules and it's pretty specific. Equally specific is that it's not tied to rest, long, short or otherwise.
True, as it gets messy when a party is sometimes travelling by night and resting by day e.g. through a hot desert.

The Balance wheel, necessary for any kind of reliable watch, wasn't invented until 1755. Its precursor, the Tompion regulator, was invented in 1675.

Queen Elizabeth was known to have a pocket watch in the mid 1500s, but it operated badly, and was so expensive that only the nobility could afford one. So no, pocket watches weren't "commonly available" in the 1500s, and wouldn't be actually workable for a century after Elizabeth took the throne.

A water clock is portable? Like the hour glass it depends on being kept upright (so carrying it in a pack is out), but has the additional problem that you can't jostle it significantly: It will spill or slosh if carried on, say, horseback. And if you've ever carried a pack you know that 20 pounds is a significant chunk of weight to add to your already full pack full of food and supplies.
All true, but keep in mind we're in a magical world here; and it's reasonable to assume some enterprising magic user has at some point designed an easy-to-build hourglass where the sand flow is magically regulated, or a portable sundial with a built-in lodestone (to find north) that casts a shadow no matter where the sun might be or what's hiding it (i.e. it still works underground and-or at night or under thick cloud cover)

Lan-"does anybody really know what time it is"-efan
 

I think the reason 4e and 5e went to "after an extended rest" is precisely to eliminate arguments like this.

Have you had an extended rest since the last time you used the Daily power?
no = you can't use that power
yes = you can
 


jasper

Rotten DM
Make things simple. Sun rise is a 7 AM. And sun Set is 7 PM. Or choose a time. Even if you can not see the sun etc.
 

Greenfield

Adventurer
I think the reason 4e and 5e went to "after an extended rest" is precisely to eliminate arguments like this.

Have you had an extended rest since the last time you used the Daily power?
no = you can't use that power
yes = you can

Can a "Daily Use" item take a "Long Rest" while the bearer is active?

Presume character A uses said item right after a Long Rest, then hands it to character B, who is just coming off shift and about to take a Long Rest. Does the item recharge?

After character B awakens and uses said item, can he/she hand it to character C, who is just coming off shift and is about to take a Long Rest. Can they then, in turn, use the item before handing it back to character A?

Using that motif a useful "Once Daily" item could be used, reasonably, three times per day.

That's the flaw with the "Long Rest" approach for items.

If that item is the magic bedroll (daily item), which allows the sleeper a Long Rest in one or two hours, the whole system ties itself in a logic knot: Clearly it was never intended to just be passed around all day and all night, yet its purpose to speed Long Rest cycles for the user means that it automatically recharges as it's being used, and is theoretically then ready for another sleeper. Either that or it's not really usable once per day, since the user has to take an unaided Long Rest before they can use it again. That makes it an "every two days" item, if used in good faith.

One thing about later editions (including 3.* relative to 1 and 2) is that in "fixing" some perceived problem, they usually just break it in a different way. Frequently while breaking something else at the same time. :)
 

Greenfield

Adventurer
A day is a single rotation of the planet. Doesn’t matter if the sun rises or not.

What is the start point for your rotation? Or is it something else?

I cast a Daily spell/power at, say 10:00 am. Do I have to wait until 10:01 am the next day (one planetary rotation later)?

If I use something like a Ring of Sustenance that allows minimal or no sleep/rest, does that affect when I can use that item again?

I'm not too serious about these challenges, mind you, and I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just pointing out that every rationalization has inherent flaws, and the more elaborate and/or convoluted the rationalization is, the easier it is to spot those flaws.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
A day is a single rotation of the planet. Doesn’t matter if the sun rises or not.
Exactly.

Until you're not on that planet.

When you're on some happy plane where the sun never sets, or in the endless darkness of the abyss, or just floating in outer space: something else has to be used. For reasons noted above, "long rest" really isn't the answer unless the party tend to follow their usual routines based on their body clocks and more or less all rest at once (which is what the 4e-5e rule seems to assume as a baseline) roughly once per 24 hours. But if the players/PCs are intent on gaming the system in ways like [MENTION=6669384]Greenfield[/MENTION] suggests, that's when the DM has to step in and say 'no'.
 

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