We learn more from failure...
LordEntrails
Hero
Well the idea is debatable, but if true, do you want your party failing regularly? And then in some situations, one doesn't learn anything from failure if they don't know why they fail. Would you want to account for that?
The way I consider it, maybe the players learn more from failure, if indeed the players take the lesson(s) learned, the characters do not. Mainly because I'm not worried about being that "fiddly" and trying to account for all sorts of stuff that imo doesn't change the fun.
The way I consider it, maybe the players learn more from failure, if indeed the players take the lesson(s) learned, the characters do not. Mainly because I'm not worried about being that "fiddly" and trying to account for all sorts of stuff that imo doesn't change the fun.
TerraDave
5ever, or until 2024
There are two parts for this.
For the players: they do learn from failure, or near failure, and it can improve play, making it easier to achieve the next reward.
For the characters: I would not do XP for killing stuff. This is a very narrow kind of reward. Maybe more XP for showing up and trying--really a variation of milestones--with an understanding that if they (the players) show that learning then the rate may accelerate. Or at least that there characters may be more likely to stay alive.
For the players: they do learn from failure, or near failure, and it can improve play, making it easier to achieve the next reward.
For the characters: I would not do XP for killing stuff. This is a very narrow kind of reward. Maybe more XP for showing up and trying--really a variation of milestones--with an understanding that if they (the players) show that learning then the rate may accelerate. Or at least that there characters may be more likely to stay alive.
Blue
Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
I've used that concept in a RPG system I was designing many years ago. But I wouldn't apply it to levels above individual skills - success or failure of a large group effort does not imply anything about the individual successes and failures.
To use a modern example, a User Interface designer could design a poor to use interface, a developer could implement it brilliantly, a QA person could find bugs in the backend (success) but not report the poor interface (failure) and the salesperson could claim it does things outside the amount of features it has which makes more sales (success) but less repeat business (failure). The success of the project as a whole doesn't address the lessons learned by the database developer who first put together something that worked at first glance but couldn't handle some of the needs and ended up getting redesigned in a much more flexible way - that failure advanced them, gave them XP.
Even an encounter is too large for the adage: a defender dropping to a lucky crit isn't really an indication that they had a learning experience even though they "failed". And if a wizard did great and others didn't hold up their part and a scene was failed, do you reward the others and not the wizard?
Just to change topics some, the idea of failure leading to growth is a good one for slowing advancement when you are already really good since you need to find challenges that are meaningful and hard enough to fail. However, many (most? all?) RPG gamers see XP, at least partially, as a reward. Withholding it when they do well may not sit comfortably with many.
To use a modern example, a User Interface designer could design a poor to use interface, a developer could implement it brilliantly, a QA person could find bugs in the backend (success) but not report the poor interface (failure) and the salesperson could claim it does things outside the amount of features it has which makes more sales (success) but less repeat business (failure). The success of the project as a whole doesn't address the lessons learned by the database developer who first put together something that worked at first glance but couldn't handle some of the needs and ended up getting redesigned in a much more flexible way - that failure advanced them, gave them XP.
Even an encounter is too large for the adage: a defender dropping to a lucky crit isn't really an indication that they had a learning experience even though they "failed". And if a wizard did great and others didn't hold up their part and a scene was failed, do you reward the others and not the wizard?
Just to change topics some, the idea of failure leading to growth is a good one for slowing advancement when you are already really good since you need to find challenges that are meaningful and hard enough to fail. However, many (most? all?) RPG gamers see XP, at least partially, as a reward. Withholding it when they do well may not sit comfortably with many.
Ralif Redhammer
Legend
Not XP, but if someone plays out their failure in a particularly interesting and entertaining way, accepting it with grace, I’ll certainly award inspiration.
Charlaquin
Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
XP in D&D isn’t a simulation of the learning process, it’s a reward. I give XP for whatever behavior I want to encourage in a given campaign; usually for overcoming encounters, completing quests, and discovering secrets.
Thanks to those who have responded so far.
The question emerged in a private discussion with a fellow DM. Just game theory stuff, not actually looking for a way to implement it. The interesting conclusion we arrived at was that milestones are one way of abstracting that learning modality into the progression system. The 'simulate everything' part of my brain that wants to make a system for everything is surprisingly okay with this, but it still got me wondering if others went for a more granular approach.
The question emerged in a private discussion with a fellow DM. Just game theory stuff, not actually looking for a way to implement it. The interesting conclusion we arrived at was that milestones are one way of abstracting that learning modality into the progression system. The 'simulate everything' part of my brain that wants to make a system for everything is surprisingly okay with this, but it still got me wondering if others went for a more granular approach.
Aiden_Keller_
First Post
I have tried and failed...I feel that milestone is MUCH easier to handle.
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