D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

[cmad1977]

Did i already say ‘no they dont’?

Because they don’t. At all.

 

[KarinsDad]

I mean, you talk about witch bolt and complain it doesn't have any kind of control. But, it actually does. The monster can choose to stay in the fight, taking damage each round. Or it can leave. Which removes it from the fight for at least one round, probably two. Which is a huge tactical advantage in 5e combats where combats usually only last a few rounds anyway. How is the spell not doing exactly what it's supposed to do? What makes the spell so "seriously crappy"?

I wasn't aware that I was complaining, just making an observation.

Are you stating that Witch Bolt is a good spell to take relative to other first level damaging spells because once in a blue moon, it might have some minor limited control? That appears to be arguing just to take an opposing POV.

At range 30 feet, it is mostly limited to foes who have a PC or PC ally in melee range, so it tends to limit targets. Even assuming that the wizard targets an engaged foe, that foe or his allies can still often target the wizard, possibly dropping the concentration, or forcing the wizard to retreat or cast another spell. It does 1 more average point of damage than the cantrip fire bolt on round x for the slim chance of being useful in round x + 1 and maybe later. Mostly, it just makes the wizard a target of the NPCs.


People talk about the DM making or breaking the enjoyment of players, but if my DM doesn't target the wizard in most witch bolt scenarios, I would be wondering why my DM was taking it so easy on the group. The primary time that I can see that the spell might actually be useful is when the enemy(ies) is already controlled by the group. But, I don't see it as a good example of a first level control spell. In our campaigns, it would typically harm the wizard more than help the group.

 

[KarinsDad]

Certainly not every experience, but my point remains that DMs have a lot of ability to control the balance of the game. If I'm playing a badass melee fighter....and my DM throws nothing but long ranged combat into the mix....I'll bet that player starts thinking melee fighters are weak. Vice Versa, if all combats start with an ambush right in melee, melee fighters look dominantly powerful.

The wizard is no difference. If I'm playing a fireball slinging evoker (or for low levels shatter), and the enemies never clump up for me....than yeah I'm not going to feel very strong. But good DMs will know to throw the evoker a bone every once in a while, and give them that sweet group of mooks they get to blow up....and suddenly everyone goes "holy crap that wizard is powerful!".

That's why white room analysis on Class abilities here is not going to solve anything. Now if the real issue is certain spells are weak....than lets have that debate. But if the focus is "wizards just plain suck", I'm sorry....but as a DM I have plenty of opportunity to showcase my wizard player's power, and its not even difficult.

So you state.

I'm fairly sure that this wasn't the case in the campaign where I posted this thread. We had a great time, myself included. I just felt that being the party Detect Magic Nodwick wasn't the role that I had signed up for. Part of that was my extremely unlucky run of dice rolls for many many combats, and I acknowledge that. But part of it was the fact that many of the options from the spell list were just plain subpar. Charm Person? Good luck with using that on any NPC that you might want to interact with in the future. Suggestion for 8 hours? Get ready to take out your concentration ability for most of the adventuring day. Seriously? I actually came up with an awesome idea for Suggestion in that campaign, and the other players thought it was a great idea until we found out that it was a concentration spell. So, the entire idea that the group was building plans around was scrapped. That was extremely disappointing that my PC was about to shine and it turned into a turd because WotC puts the concentration tag on so many spells.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

You don't have to run Suggestion for eight hours. Once you have convinced the guards that these aren't the druids they are looking for and they move along it's done it's job and you can do something else.


It sounds to me that you wanted a character who blows stuff up with magic. That's not the wizard (or at least they are not the best at it). If you choose the wrong class it doesn't mean there is something wrong with the class...

 

[KarinsDad]

I would suggest actually tracking the damage done and not going with your "gut" feelings. Actually take the time to write down the total damage done by each character in each round of combat. I would wager that you would be very, very surprised.

Actually, it you go back and reread the very first post in this thread, you'll see an example of me tracking damage. Of course, it is anecdotal since it is based on one adventuring day, but it was a typical example of a better adventuring day experience for my PC, 35 points of damage in 4 encounters (as compared to http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...ards-Really-Do-Suck-in-5E/page111#post7359269 where a same level wizard PC did 182 points of damage in 3 encounters).

 

[KarinsDad]

You don't have to run Suggestion for eight hours. Once you have convinced the guards that these aren't the druids they are looking for and they move along it's done it's job and you can do something else.

Of course not. It's just that the one time we wanted to use, it, yes we did want Suggestion to work for a really long time.

It sounds to me that you wanted a character who blows stuff up with magic. That's not the wizard (or at least they are not the best at it). If you choose the wrong class it doesn't mean there is something wrong with the class...

Yeah, that would be an incorrect assumption on your part. I actually wanted to do something cool with Suggestion that didn't involve blowing up anything.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Of course not. It's just that the one time we wanted to use, it, yes we did want Suggestion to work for a really long time.



Yeah, that would be an incorrect assumption on your part. I actually wanted to do something cool with Suggestion that didn't involve blowing up anything.

But you didn't, did you? The only thing stopping you was the fear that you might want to cast another concentration spell. You where playing the wrong class. Either play like a wizard, do the subtle thing and cast non-concentration spells for the duration, or play like a sorcerer and blow stuff up.

 

[Dessert Nomad]

These complaints make less sense to me as the thread goes on. The fact that WOTC makes some spells that are good and some that are bad is something that I wish would change, but it doesn't make low level wizards suck, just 'wizards who do a bad job picking spells suck'. Even if spells were all good, you could still make a bad selection or just decide not to use a spell. For example, there was someone earlier in the thread who just didn't want to use sleep even though at low levels it amounts to 'I win a fight for us'. And here we have someone who had a good spell (suggestion), found a good use for it, but decided that he didn't want to pay the cost of using his concentration on it.

The game can't play itself for you. You have to actually take good spells and use them to be good as a wizard. While classes like fighter and rogue are a bit easier to play, if you play a rogue but decide not to sneak attack ever you're still going to have a bad time.

 

[KarinsDad]

But you didn't, did you? The only thing stopping you was the fear that you might want to cast another concentration spell. You where playing the wrong class. Either play like a wizard, do the subtle thing and cast non-concentration spells for the duration, or play like a sorcerer and blow stuff up.

Seriously?

Without knowing anything about the scenario or the plan, you came to the conclusion that not using the spell was fear based. Could it just be possible that the plan required a second concentration spell from the wizard in order to work?

I was trying to do something subtle.

And claiming that sorcerer's main schtick is blowing stuff up? Assumptions much? We have an 8th level Sorcerer in our current group and outside of cantrips, he only has 3 damaging spells out of 9 (10 if you count spells that he gains via subclass; 1 protection, 2 movement, 3 damage, 4 control). He does have damaging spells, but it's rarely his main focus.

 

[Hussar]

Actually, it you go back and reread the very first post in this thread, you'll see an example of me tracking damage. Of course, it is anecdotal since it is based on one adventuring day, but it was a typical example of a better adventuring day experience for my PC, 35 points of damage in 4 encounters (as compared to http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...ards-Really-Do-Suck-in-5E/page111#post7359269 where a same level wizard PC did 182 points of damage in 3 encounters).

So, where's the problem?

The link you provided shows that the wizard is among the top damage dealing classes. You happened not to be that wizard one day. That happens. But, again, overall, if your wizard isn't among, if not the top damage dealing character in the group, that's on the player.

And, how is "move away or take more damage" once in a blue moon for Witchbolt. That's exactly what it does. As far as "target the wizard" goes, well, again, that's on you. Cast the spell on something engaged with an ally, and, I dunno, move back? If the baddy comes after your wizard, he eats opportunity attacks from your allies - again, exactly what this spell is supposed to do. Never minding that you're an abjurer and hitting you and then you failing the concentration check is pretty low percentage as well.

So, we have a spell that forces a choice - either move away (thus removing you from the fight for a time), move to the wizard (thus causing even more damage from opportunity attacks) or ignore it and eat the automatic damage. Again, not sure what the problem is here.