The Knight Eldritch (Eldritch Knight decoupling onto the Wizard) [very early version]

[Ash Mantle]

KNIGHT ELDRITCH
The archetypal Knight Eldritch is a unique wizard that supplements their mastery of spells with martial pursuits. Trained in arcane war colleges, followers of this tradition are taught a fighting style, are rigorously trained in a variety of weapons and learn to gird themselves in unstifling armor. Practitioners of this form of magically augmented combat blend their magical prodigy and martial prowess into beautiful and devastating effect.

FIGHTING STYLE
At 2nd level, you adopt a particular style of fighting as your specialty. Choose one of the following options.

ARCHERY
You gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls you make with ranged weapons.

DEFENSE
While you are wearing armor, you gain a +1 bonus to AC.

DUELING
When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon.

GREAT WEAPON FIGHTING
When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with two hands, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll, even if the new roll is a 1 or a 2. The weapon must have the two-handed or versatile property for you to gain this benefit.

PROTECTION
When a creature you can see attacks a target other than you that is within 5 feet of you, you can use your reaction to impose disadvantage on the attack roll. You must be wielding a shield.

BONUS PROFICIENCY
When you choose this archetype at 2nd level, you gain proficiency in light armor, simple weapons, and martial weapons.

WEAPON SPELL FOCUS
At 2nd level, you can choose one weapon of your choice as your signature weapon. You can use this signature weapon as a spellcasting focus for your wizard spells.
As a bonus action, you can expend a spell slot of 1st level or higher to transform the form of this weapon into another weapon. This alternate form of the weapon lasts for 1 minute after which it returns to the form of your signature weapon.

WAR MAGIC
Starting at 6th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.
As a bonus action, you can expend one spell slot of 1st level or higher to attack twice, instead of once, when you take the Attack action on your turn.

ELDRITCH STRIKE
Beginning at 10th level, you learn how to make your weapon strikes undercut a creature's resistance to your spells. When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, that creature has disadvantage on the next saving throw it makes against a spell you cast before the end of your next turn.

IMPROVED WAR MAGIC
At 14th level, when you use your action to cast a spell, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.

 

[Ash Mantle]

As others have very rightly pointed out in this thread, directly porting over a subclass's worth of class features is nigh impossible to recouple onto another class, especially if that class follows a different progression of class features.

For the Knight Eldritch, I've had to invent a new class feature, and had to strap one class feature onto another. Hopefully these can work adequately enough. I'm now wondering whether the other class features they get should be more unique and come into their own as a new subclass entirely, rather than just remaining as direct carry-overs.
There may be ample design space for a magus-type class.

Of course, there's also the idea of class-feature feats as well.

What do you all think?

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Some initial thoughts:
-Why not create one or more unique fighting styles that blend martial and arcane traditions. For example:

Weapon & Wand
Whenever you are simultaneously wielding a weapon amd an arcane focus, you deal +2 damage with weapons and cantrips.

Staff Master
You can use a quarterstaff as an arcane focus. While wielding your quarterstaff with 2 hands, your attack cantrips that target one creature deal one extra die of damage.

-Weapon spell focus seems odd. I would remove that weapons serve as foci and instead incorporate arcane foci into the fighting styles as above. Also, the idea of expending spell slots to change the weapon seems weird and I don't see players ever doing it.

-Second part of War Magic is weird. You are spending a bonus action and a spell slot for one extra attack with the attack action. More often than not, a spell slot is more valuable when used to cast a spell. Magic Missile or burning hands are both way better options than attacking with a Greatsword, especially since strength/dex will likely be secondary stats to your intelligence.

Personally, I think something like this can be better personalized rather than trying to port Eldritch Knight onto the wizard. It's clunky and doesn't feel connected to being a wizard so well.

 

[Leatherhead]

I'm going to have to add this to the pile of ill-fated attempts at the wizard-warrior. Of which, the Bladesinger is still the best.

However, the Hexblade is arguably a better Gish overall. Even with all the extra abilities that aren't very Gish-like, the core ability Hex Warrior is the most solid starting point for such a character.

So I would start with a variant "Arcane Warrior":
You gain proficiency in Light Armor, Simple Weapons, and Martial Weapons. You may bond with a weapon to use it as a spellcasting focus, and use INT instead of DEX or STR for weapon attacks (only with that weapon). You may add your Proficiency Bonus to Concentration checks if you do not otherwise gain your Proficiency Bonus on such checks.

Then drop the fighting style, and follow up with War Magic/Eldritch Strike/Improved War Strike.

 

[Ash Mantle]

Some initial thoughts:
-Why not create one or more unique fighting styles that blend martial and arcane traditions. For example:

Weapon & Wand
Whenever you are simultaneously wielding a weapon amd an arcane focus, you deal +2 damage with weapons and cantrips.

Staff Master
You can use a quarterstaff as an arcane focus. While wielding your quarterstaff with 2 hands, your attack cantrips that target one creature deal one extra die of damage.

Those are pretty cool, creating unique fighting styles that blend martial and arcane traditions is a cool idea, and would just add into the fighting styles available to be selected rather than occupying a feat slot.

-Weapon spell focus seems odd. I would remove that weapons serve as foci and instead incorporate arcane foci into the fighting styles as above. Also, the idea of expending spell slots to change the weapon seems weird and I don't see players ever doing it.

I was initially thinking of having the knight eldritch have a tome that they'll then transform into a weapon, in a way kind of like the warlock, and the idea of having them select their weapon as their foci was to better capture the image of blending spell channelling and weapon attacking. The idea of expending spell slots to transform their weapon into another one was, in a way, giving them another choice they could have in combat. It's also since I figured wizards have quite an array of spells available to them, it may need playtesting however.

-Second part of War Magic is weird. You are spending a bonus action and a spell slot for one extra attack with the attack action. More often than not, a spell slot is more valuable when used to cast a spell. Magic Missile or burning hands are both way better options than attacking with a Greatsword, especially since strength/dex will likely be secondary stats to your intelligence.

This is a good point though, I was actually of doing away with the second attack completely, it was a just a tacked on thing.

Personally, I think something like this can be better personalized rather than trying to port Eldritch Knight onto the wizard. It's clunky and doesn't feel connected to being a wizard so well.

Yeah, that's what I'm getting as well, it'll probably serve better with a more unique approach to the class features, ie not being a direct port in some areas. And probably moreso with feats like what can be gained by Magic Initiate and Martial Adept.
I'll go back to the drawing board and see what can be created, I've a recoupling idea that involves the paladin so let's see how that also turns out. I've the idea of having this paladin serve as more of an arcane battery.

It's helpful just to post ideas, thanks heaps, dude, I much appreciate your feedback.

 

[Ash Mantle]

I'm going to have to add this to the pile of ill-fated attempts at the wizard-warrior. Of which, the Bladesinger is still the best.

However, the Hexblade is arguably a better Gish overall. Even with all the extra abilities that aren't very Gish-like, the core ability Hex Warrior is the most solid starting point for such a character.

Heh, yeah, I also quite like the bladesinger and hexblade a fair bit, but wanted to try out something that was more durable and could better blend magic with attacks. What may be a better idea would be to approach this with creating a new subclass, or subclasses, entirely with the original class features serving only as inspiration.

So I would start with a variant "Arcane Warrior":
You gain proficiency in Light Armor, Simple Weapons, and Martial Weapons. You may bond with a weapon to use it as a spellcasting focus, and use INT instead of DEX or STR for weapon attacks (only with that weapon). You may add your Proficiency Bonus to Concentration checks if you do not otherwise gain your Proficiency Bonus on such checks.

Then drop the fighting style, and follow up with War Magic/Eldritch Strike/Improved War Strike.

That's pretty cool, that could work quite well.
I was also initially thinking of having a variant that basically replaces certain class features, but haven't really groked as yet how to implement this. I'll need to think on this some more.
I'll go back to the drawing board and see what can be created, I've a recoupling idea that involves the paladin so let's see how that also turns out. I've the idea of having this paladin serve as more of an arcane battery.

It's helpful just to post ideas, thanks heaps, dude, I much appreciate your feedback.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

However, the Hexblade is arguably a better Gish overall. Even with all the extra abilities that aren't very Gish-like, the core ability Hex Warrior is the most solid starting point for such a character.

Perhaps this is a conversation for it's own thread, but the Hexblade is really OP if you compare it to other warlock options. Not only do you get a unique hex ability (which outright steals a portion straight from the Fiend patron), but on top get to use your best stat for melee. Why would anyone going Warlock not choose Hexblade? And for that matter, why would anyone going bard or sorcerer not dip a level into Hexblade?

At least with the Bladesinger they tried to put the 2nd level ability on par with the other archetype options. And likely they justified a slight power increase due to the racial restriction. Hexblade does neither.

So I would start with a variant "Arcane Warrior":
You gain proficiency in Light Armor, Simple Weapons, and Martial Weapons. You may bond with a weapon to use it as a spellcasting focus, and use INT instead of DEX or STR for weapon attacks (only with that weapon). You may add your Proficiency Bonus to Concentration checks if you do not otherwise gain your Proficiency Bonus on such checks.

Then drop the fighting style, and follow up with War Magic/Eldritch Strike/Improved War Strike.

Once again, an ability like this is far greater than what other Wizard archetypes obtain. Does it allow you to mechanically fit your concept? Sure. Is it balanced compared to other wizard archetypes? Not in the slightest. A gish should not be a character that is equally as competent as a fighter and a caster, but rather they sacrifice the power they could achieve in either direction to be more of a generalist. If you want a melee combatant that uses Int to replace Str or Dex for melee attacks AND casts spells as well as a Wizard, I personally believe you really need to create its own GISH class. That way you can have the design space to put in on par balance wise with other classes.

And I think a class like that would probably at first level get a d8 HP, light and medium armor, Int for melee attacks, and full caster slots, no cantrips, and maybe a minor additional ability.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I see a lot more PHB Warlocks than Hexblades in actual games. People play the concept they want, not whatever seems most powerful mechanically.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

I see a lot more PHB Warlocks than Hexblades in actual games. People play the concept they want, not whatever seems most powerful mechanically.

Perhaps that is your table experience, but that does not extend to all tables. Per the D&D Beyond data, the Fiend is chosen significantly more than the Hexblade. However, the Hexblade is the second most chosen, and requires additional monetary investment by a player oe gaming table to access, and I suspect that impacts the numbers.

Secondly, I'm not talking about why players pick the classes they do or how players play/use the game. I am talking about game design and mechanics. And from a game design perspective, WotC has created classes that follow a general structure with each class and archetype getting access to certain abilities at certain times. This creates a relative means by which a one class or archetype can be assessed against others. It's not perfect, but it's what we are working with. Considering the other Warlock Patrons, at first level each gets a fairly limited power. Fiend can gain temp when they kill something, Archfey gets a once per rest spell-like ability, and Great Old One gets rather limited telepathy.

Then in comes the Hexblade. They gain a once per rest spell-like ability (that grants a number of things in addition to ripping from the Fiend's ability), medium armor, shields, martial weapons, and can opt to use Cha for attacks instead of Str or Dex.

In essence, mechanically speaking, this is making a statement. All the things a Hexblade gets at level 1 is essentially equal to all the things a Fiend, Archfey, or Great Old One gets. Which I categorically disagree with.

Now does the Hexblade play as one would expect a Hexblade to play? Sure. So does a Fiend Warlock or a Great Old One. But I'm not talking about how they play. I am talking about mechanical structure and balance. Not only does the Hexblade completely disregard the precedent of structure set by the original Warlock archetypes by offering much more than any of the original archetypes, but it does so in a way that gives a Hexblade many more mechanical advantages and options than any of the other archetypes.

But, once again, perhaps this is a discussion best made in a separate thread. Getting back on topic, I do not believe there is enough design space within the Wizard archetype structure to allow one to substitute Intelligence for Strength or Dexterity with weapon attacks. This is the whole reason that Wizards get access to attack cantrips that use Intelligence and scale with level.

Not only that, but simply substituting one stat for another is a very boring mechanic. Yes, it creates mechanical advantages to reduce MAD. However, it runs into the same issue as +1 weapons and armors have. They are mechanically impressive, but lack any kind of imagination. +X magic items do not inspire any kind of role playing opportunity nor create any kind of cinematic quality that can heighten or add to how one plays their character.

By considering abilities that aren't "Replace X stat with Y stat" you increase design space for mechanics that can inspire more creative opportunities for play. Additionally, this creates a bounded space, which can enhance creativity. If a Wizard Warrior cannot just substitute Strength/Dexterity for Intelligence when using weapons, then how do they compensate for their relatively weaker physical ability while demonstrating capacity to hold their own in a fight? How do they Wizard their way into a fight, rather than just approach a fight like a Fighter? These are interesting questions that can inform design choices that are way cooler than substituting an inconvenient modifier for a more convenient one.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Perhaps that is your table experience, but that does not extend to all tables.

Did I say that my experience extends to all tables? I'm quite sure I'm perfectly capable of communicating that, if that were my intention.

Per the D&D Beyond data, the Fiend is chosen significantly more than the Hexblade. However, the Hexblade is the second most chosen, and requires additional monetary investment by a player oe gaming table to access, and I suspect that impacts the numbers.

You suspect it does, but we don't know. Further, does that information include multi-classed warlocks? The most popular MC warlock choice by far will be the one that plays best with the popular classes folks tend to mix with warlock, which is generally hexblade, both in terms of mechanics, and flavor (it brings very little specific story to the build, which makes it an easy story MC than the others, which require a bit more story investment to make sense of as an MC option. Hexblade can just be a thing you found, for instance.)

Either way, it isn't even the most popular option. The Fiend isn't slightly above it, it's significantly above.

Secondly, I'm not talking about why players pick the classes they do or how players play/use the game. I am talking about game design and mechanics. And from a game design perspective, WotC has created classes that follow a general structure with each class and archetype getting access to certain abilities at certain times. This creates a relative means by which a one class or archetype can be assessed against others. It's not perfect, but it's what we are working with. Considering the other Warlock Patrons, at first level each gets a fairly limited power. Fiend can gain temp when they kill something, Archfey gets a once per rest spell-like ability, and Great Old One gets rather limited telepathy.

None of that matters half as much as what people enjoy playing. The Hexblade, like the others, gets what it needs to do what it promises in the flavor text. You can't shunt half of it off to level 6, because that's 5 levels where your concept literally just doesn't work. For most games, that is almost half of the entire campaign. IOW, comparing subclasses features against eachother isn't useful. A Hexblade Warlock, doing what it's built to do (fight in melee), is still just keeping up with a Fiend Warlock doing what it's built to do (blast things for solid damage at-will). And even at that, it's not a durable combatant, so it's giving up on melee capability by being a warlock rather than something else.

The Hexblade's only stand out is that you can add the extra damage from Hexblade's Curse to ALL attacks against the target. That's it. Even then, everything else it gets at level 1 just makes it capable of being in melee, so it's not imbalanced. It's certainly not game breaking.

Again, worded differently this time, all that matters is what happens at actual tables. Theoretical imbalance of level one features of subclasses in a class, reviewed as if no context exists for those features, is completely, unsalvageably, useless. The conclusions drawn from such an analysis tell us less than nothing.

Then in comes the Hexblade. They gain a once per rest spell-like ability (that grants a number of things in addition to ripping from the Fiend's ability), medium armor, shields, martial weapons, and can opt to use Cha for attacks instead of Str or Dex.

It's helpful to recall that the Fiend gets that ability all day, every day, forever. The Hexblade gets it once per short rest. They're gonna get THP once per short rest, and extra damage a few rounds per short rest at most.

In essence, mechanically speaking, this is making a statement. All the things a Hexblade gets at level 1 is essentially equal to all the things a Fiend, Archfey, or Great Old One gets. Which I categorically disagree with.

Is it? Why? If gains what it needs to do what it should do. That's it.

Now does the Hexblade play as one would expect a Hexblade to play? Sure. So does a Fiend Warlock or a Great Old One. But I'm not talking about how they play. I am talking about mechanical structure and balance.

How they play is all that matters. If a Hexblade isn't unbalanced in play, it isn't unbalanced. Period.