GreyLord
Legend
Some thoughts on discussions I have gathered over the weekend (not that anyone will actually read this much or even consider what I am writing as I have no real influence on the ongoing discussion, at least I do not think I do).
A Social influencer (Kwan) recently had people take up some of his comments to say that Oriental Adventures should have it's name changed or be taken off from sale.
On that note I started talking to some of the actual RPG gamers I know that play D&D (not just say they are game designers or other things, actual individuals of Asian descent who play D&D). When talking about this idea of Oriental Adventures and it's title, some were actually pretty angry. Others took it in stride. It was interesting.
Some pointed out that Masataka Ohta, Akira Saito, Hiroyasu Kurose, Takafumi Sakurai, and Yuka Tate-ishi were those who were involved with critiquing and even writing part of the original Oriental Adventures, and in fact, are some of the ONLY credited Asian individuals to EVER be credited on ANY OFFICIAL D&D release for direct contributions (apologies if I didn't get the names exactly right, I tried spelling them correctly, I apologize if I made any mistakes on it). That said, it was done with short notice and there may have been many other changes made had they been given the time to fully change them or taken more seriously in that endeavor. Those who pointed it out do NOT WANT the few Asian contributors to be erased from D&D history, which seems to be one of the driving points of why they are so angry about people suggesting the removal of OA.
Some stated there may be problems with the original Oriental Adventures, but there are more serious problems that they would rather tackle first. They were surprised to hear that this move to remove Oriental Adventures was from someone who also was of Asian descent (and as per their profile also had degrees in various Asian studies as well as travel in those areas). Compared to the "REAL" problems, they state that Oriental Adventures is rather mild in comparison. So, here is a list of 5 (but not all, and not sure I have them in the right order) of REAL problems they currently have with D&D.
That is NOT to say there are not problems with OA or there are NOT things that they would not change (there are things they would change with OA if given the opportunity), just that if they were to want to make changes in the RPG community and what goes on, there are BIGGER things they feel are FAR MORE IMPORTANT.
I will admit that this is anecdotal (the group is those that I know does not constitute a LOT of gamers from Asia or Asian American gamers or Gamers of Asian descent in Europe) and thus is limited. However, these are things they seemed to desire far more than other changes.
#1. Do not ask where they are from if they are born in the US or Europe. This is annoying. They go to cons, they go to game stores and people ask them where they are from. They say they are American or born in the UK, and then they are asked..yes...but where are you really from...or...but where is your family from. This implies they are still foreign and NOT really American or European. This happens all the time among gamers. This is not polite. They are just as (insert whatever nation you are in) as anyone else born in that nation.
Gamers that ARE from Asia don't mind being asked this question, as long as it is respectful. However, they do not like being confused or called as being from a place they are not (eg. a Korean individual being called Japanese or vice versa...etc, or Japanese being called Chinese...etc).
#2. Stop with the slang. People at the game tables or at shops may call them slang terms or words in reference to their Asian background. The gamers with Asian backgrounds may remain silent or even laugh it off in front of everyone there, but it is hurtful and is something that seems MANY of them have endured. It seems to go along with many of the game groups out there. Don't use slang, to use derogatory terms or jokes, etc.
#3. Not really from the US or Europe (UK at least), but in regards to other nations...more support in their native language for D&D. Not sure how far this would be plausible or possible though. They have some who have taken on themselves to translate some items, and apparently when 1e was around there WERE D&D and AD&D copies in various languages for the time.
#4. More recognition for Asian influence on RPGs. Asia is one of the BIGGEST groups behind CRPGs these days, and are a major force in the influence on RPGs in general. You would never guess that from looking at D&D. Many of the ideas that influenced modern TTRPGs came from CRPGs, and a LOT of that are from the influences of RPGS made in Asia.
#5. No more white washing. I pointed this out before, but I don't think anyone took notice, and most Americans may not anyways. Many companies create a class called the Ninja, or the Samurai, or another class based upon an Asian notation (such as a nobility, a group, an occupation, or otherwise). However, in many instances it is something that will normally be used by a Non-Asian background or group. It is accepted that they'll have Elf Ninja's or Western style samurai. No cultural notation is made regarding what these classes originally were in a historical and cultural reference. It is taking names out of context and putting them into a game term.
Some felt it was respectable that people would give such adherence to things such as the ideas of Ninjas. Some also felt that while it was notable the fascination in the West with such terms, stealing the term and using it to be completely out of context and ignoring the larger culture behind it was normally seen as less desirable. If one is going to take cultural aspects, define it in regards to the culture one is taking it from.
As I said, some thoughts on the REAL problems that I discussed with various friend of mine (well, some more acquaintances than friends, as we may have gamed together in the past, or met at gaming events in the past, and talk regularly, we may not be quite at the friendship level with all of them). Some were pretty serious discussions though, as these were things they actually thought were bigger problems and some of these problems were things (notably #1 and #2) they felt very strongly about sometimes.
======= I've sat on this thread for an hour now...wondering if I should hit the submit button. I actually am sort of afraid to. Those I talked to are NOT afraid at all, but they did have a sense that they are such a small minority that saying stuff like this wouldn't do any good anyways. Sometimes it's better to just be silent...sometimes other actions are better. However, I definitely feel some fear about posting this. I keep backing off. I know people will say there are already threads about this, but none of them seem to actually address many of these issues (especially, for example, the credit of Asians to D&D, including those in OA, or the more serious ones #1 and #2). Still, I feel fear that I'll be ostracized for posting this here as the actual concerns I am writing above do not match the general consensus I've read on the forums about the real problems. I admit it is anecdotal from a small group that I know, but there were some common concerns that I noted. I shouldn't be as worried, but I havent' been able to hit the post thread button yet. I just have this fear that there are going to bad unforeseen ramifications from me posting this. I don't know what they would be, but I am nervous...I can't pin exactly why though.
I think I'm going to hit the button finally. I think I've been respectful in my comments, and most likely it will not be noticed much and shrink to the bottom of the forums. I think it is important to get the real concerns out there (if we are going to discuss problems facing these gamers) rather than lighter thoughts that actually do not address the problems many of them face (even if it is anecdotal on my part).
A Social influencer (Kwan) recently had people take up some of his comments to say that Oriental Adventures should have it's name changed or be taken off from sale.
On that note I started talking to some of the actual RPG gamers I know that play D&D (not just say they are game designers or other things, actual individuals of Asian descent who play D&D). When talking about this idea of Oriental Adventures and it's title, some were actually pretty angry. Others took it in stride. It was interesting.
Some pointed out that Masataka Ohta, Akira Saito, Hiroyasu Kurose, Takafumi Sakurai, and Yuka Tate-ishi were those who were involved with critiquing and even writing part of the original Oriental Adventures, and in fact, are some of the ONLY credited Asian individuals to EVER be credited on ANY OFFICIAL D&D release for direct contributions (apologies if I didn't get the names exactly right, I tried spelling them correctly, I apologize if I made any mistakes on it). That said, it was done with short notice and there may have been many other changes made had they been given the time to fully change them or taken more seriously in that endeavor. Those who pointed it out do NOT WANT the few Asian contributors to be erased from D&D history, which seems to be one of the driving points of why they are so angry about people suggesting the removal of OA.
Some stated there may be problems with the original Oriental Adventures, but there are more serious problems that they would rather tackle first. They were surprised to hear that this move to remove Oriental Adventures was from someone who also was of Asian descent (and as per their profile also had degrees in various Asian studies as well as travel in those areas). Compared to the "REAL" problems, they state that Oriental Adventures is rather mild in comparison. So, here is a list of 5 (but not all, and not sure I have them in the right order) of REAL problems they currently have with D&D.
That is NOT to say there are not problems with OA or there are NOT things that they would not change (there are things they would change with OA if given the opportunity), just that if they were to want to make changes in the RPG community and what goes on, there are BIGGER things they feel are FAR MORE IMPORTANT.
I will admit that this is anecdotal (the group is those that I know does not constitute a LOT of gamers from Asia or Asian American gamers or Gamers of Asian descent in Europe) and thus is limited. However, these are things they seemed to desire far more than other changes.
#1. Do not ask where they are from if they are born in the US or Europe. This is annoying. They go to cons, they go to game stores and people ask them where they are from. They say they are American or born in the UK, and then they are asked..yes...but where are you really from...or...but where is your family from. This implies they are still foreign and NOT really American or European. This happens all the time among gamers. This is not polite. They are just as (insert whatever nation you are in) as anyone else born in that nation.
Gamers that ARE from Asia don't mind being asked this question, as long as it is respectful. However, they do not like being confused or called as being from a place they are not (eg. a Korean individual being called Japanese or vice versa...etc, or Japanese being called Chinese...etc).
#2. Stop with the slang. People at the game tables or at shops may call them slang terms or words in reference to their Asian background. The gamers with Asian backgrounds may remain silent or even laugh it off in front of everyone there, but it is hurtful and is something that seems MANY of them have endured. It seems to go along with many of the game groups out there. Don't use slang, to use derogatory terms or jokes, etc.
#3. Not really from the US or Europe (UK at least), but in regards to other nations...more support in their native language for D&D. Not sure how far this would be plausible or possible though. They have some who have taken on themselves to translate some items, and apparently when 1e was around there WERE D&D and AD&D copies in various languages for the time.
#4. More recognition for Asian influence on RPGs. Asia is one of the BIGGEST groups behind CRPGs these days, and are a major force in the influence on RPGs in general. You would never guess that from looking at D&D. Many of the ideas that influenced modern TTRPGs came from CRPGs, and a LOT of that are from the influences of RPGS made in Asia.
#5. No more white washing. I pointed this out before, but I don't think anyone took notice, and most Americans may not anyways. Many companies create a class called the Ninja, or the Samurai, or another class based upon an Asian notation (such as a nobility, a group, an occupation, or otherwise). However, in many instances it is something that will normally be used by a Non-Asian background or group. It is accepted that they'll have Elf Ninja's or Western style samurai. No cultural notation is made regarding what these classes originally were in a historical and cultural reference. It is taking names out of context and putting them into a game term.
Some felt it was respectable that people would give such adherence to things such as the ideas of Ninjas. Some also felt that while it was notable the fascination in the West with such terms, stealing the term and using it to be completely out of context and ignoring the larger culture behind it was normally seen as less desirable. If one is going to take cultural aspects, define it in regards to the culture one is taking it from.
As I said, some thoughts on the REAL problems that I discussed with various friend of mine (well, some more acquaintances than friends, as we may have gamed together in the past, or met at gaming events in the past, and talk regularly, we may not be quite at the friendship level with all of them). Some were pretty serious discussions though, as these were things they actually thought were bigger problems and some of these problems were things (notably #1 and #2) they felt very strongly about sometimes.
======= I've sat on this thread for an hour now...wondering if I should hit the submit button. I actually am sort of afraid to. Those I talked to are NOT afraid at all, but they did have a sense that they are such a small minority that saying stuff like this wouldn't do any good anyways. Sometimes it's better to just be silent...sometimes other actions are better. However, I definitely feel some fear about posting this. I keep backing off. I know people will say there are already threads about this, but none of them seem to actually address many of these issues (especially, for example, the credit of Asians to D&D, including those in OA, or the more serious ones #1 and #2). Still, I feel fear that I'll be ostracized for posting this here as the actual concerns I am writing above do not match the general consensus I've read on the forums about the real problems. I admit it is anecdotal from a small group that I know, but there were some common concerns that I noted. I shouldn't be as worried, but I havent' been able to hit the post thread button yet. I just have this fear that there are going to bad unforeseen ramifications from me posting this. I don't know what they would be, but I am nervous...I can't pin exactly why though.
I think I'm going to hit the button finally. I think I've been respectful in my comments, and most likely it will not be noticed much and shrink to the bottom of the forums. I think it is important to get the real concerns out there (if we are going to discuss problems facing these gamers) rather than lighter thoughts that actually do not address the problems many of them face (even if it is anecdotal on my part).
