@Chaosmancer Good work on fighting the good fight with posters more interested in D&D's "legacy" than harmful stereotypes! Not sure if there's much point in the back-and-forth anymore in all of these BLM inspired threads, but I usually enjoy your point-of-view when I check in at this late stage.
Should they stop selling modern Wonder Woman? No. Should they stop selling those issues? I don't know.
While I think it could be worded better, I am happy with the disclaimer WotC has added to OA, and everything else prior to 5th Edition. Comparing OA and other problematic works in the D&D catalog to problematic comics, literature, and other pieces of art I think is valid, as we are facing similar issues.
Should publishing companies and artists remove from sale all problematic pieces of art and literature? That would remove a LOT of stuff from circulation, stuff that has merit as well as problems. But just leaving it out there without any commentary doesn't sit well with me either, so the disclaimer seems to be the best option, if imperfect, IMO.
Frankly, I really don't know. I'd never buy and read a work of Lovecraft directly by this stage, I've seen and heard far too much about what some of his works are like, and I can get my existential horror somewhere else. If they stop selling his works, because no one buys them, because the consensus is that the racism is too much to stomach... isn't that still censorship like has been claimed here? Silent and slow, but it is still a product no longer being sold because people find the subject material objectionable. Does doing it that way somehow make it more morally justified than pointing it out to people and removing it quickly?
I think a key difference is the age of the product and if the artist/author(s) are still profiting off of it. And also the importance of the work to the genre it hails from. I have no problem purchasing and reading Lovecraft stories, because Howard is dead and is no longer profiting off of his work. A publishing company would certainly be making a profit, but I would encourage the next publisher to put out a Lovecraft omnibus to open it with a preface discussing the problematic aspects of his work.
And what of artistic products that build off of problematic art? Should we avoid the
Call of Chtulhu RPG games and any other art that builds off of Lovecraft's work? What about D&D products that build off of the concepts, ideas, and world-building of
Oriental Adventures?
Gygax isn't making a profit off of OA anymore, for a couple of (obvious) reasons. I doubt Zeb Cook is either, as his contribution was likely
work-for-hire. WotC isn't even the original publisher, and while they do make a profit from sales of the book, it isn't much at this point. I'm happy with the disclaimer, and the continued sale of the product. It's problematic, but to long-time fans, it is an important part of the D&D catalog.
But should they tackle this sort of product again . . . . they need to work harder at adapting Asian myth, culture, and history respectfully. Harder than they've worked so far in various 5th Edition products.
I don't know. But I can't say that calling for something to no longer be sold is the same as banning books.
It's not. I respect Kwan's position and request, and by no means is it a call for censorship, at least not the kind our society protects in the constitution. The hyperbolic arguments claiming that book banning/burning is essentially happening . . . . sheesh, no respect for that.
There seems to be this weird corollary being drawn between the people and the product. Like if this book got removed the the store suddenly every player over the age of 50 would have "racist" stamped on their license.
This is what's called
white fragility, which is closely linked to
white privilege. All white people in Western societies enjoy some degree of unfair privilege, which is beginning to erode as minority voices are finally beginning to be heard (and minority populations begin to outpace white populations). The fear of our dominant position in society changing, that we might be losing some degree of power and resources, and a fear of being labeled as racist . . . that is
white fragility. That fear is often behind the backlashes we see when effort to make art traditionally made for a white audience more diverse, like the discussion over what to do with
Oriental Adventures. It can be mild, but it can also get pretty ugly.
Well, every honor system I've ever seen as applied it broadly and statically to all levels of society. Did OA's honor system give different types of systems and rewards for different classes or social groups? And, did everyone have to deal with it or just the highest echelons?
Because, again, honor was a thing in Europe too. There were many tropes of honorable individuals, but there was never an "honor system" made for them. That only ever seems to come up, with point tracking for your honor score, when we go to the Fantasy Far East.
This is the problem with how honor systems have been used sometimes in RPGs. Do Asian cultures have a greater emphasis on "honor" than European cultures? Not really. Introducing an honor system in a book called Oriental Adventures is not good. 5th Edition does better with the honor system in the core rules, the DM's Guide. But even there it is linked with Eastern culture by the artwork on the page. Oops.
Well, I'm glad you tried guessing which name was which, but I don't see why it is so hard to ask that they actually pay attention to the differences between them going forward.
To someone familiar with Asian mythology and language, whether they are of Asian descent or not, the source of various elements in
Oriental Adventures might be obvious. But most of us have no idea what comes from Japanese, Chinese, Malaysian, or another cultures mythology.
I would LOVE it if WotC (and other publishers) would, well, cite their sources. Regardless of what culture inspires a particular element of D&D, I would love a short sidebar with the provenance, where it comes from. Are
hengeyokai Japanese or from some other culture? How closely does the D&D version mirror myth? Do this with Asian inspired fantasy, as well as European, African, and fantasy inspired from literature.