D&D General Hit Point alternate to + CON mod?

[dave2008]

I'm assuming possible changes would come in a 5.5e/6e, so while they're hopefully (but probably not) doing these changes, they can just create a new skill called Endurance, which is Constitution based. That would be used for swimming, holding up weights for a long time (the amount you can hold is based off of Strength, but the amount of time you can is based off of Constitution), and other strenuous activities that require duration-based physical tolerance.

If they made exhaustion a more widely used mechanic, CON saves could be a big deal.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I like it, probably inflates HP a bit for some classes but I like the flavor.

It would inflate it a bit, but everyone enjoys surviving a bit longer (and a new edition could just increase average damage for monsters a few points per CR to balance out the slight gain of hit points).

Not to derail the thread, but I also personally think that different races should get an additional hit dice based on what race they are at first level, just to make race count a bit more to your character. For example, halflings, kobolds, goblins and gnomes would get a 1d6. Humans, Elves, Half-Elves, Tieflings, Hobgoblins and the like would get 1d8. Dwarves, Mul, and Half-Orcs, get 1d10, while Goliaths, Orcs, Firbolg, and Bugbears would get a 1d12 (continued for every race). This would probably have to come with 6e/5.5e, though.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

If they made exhaustion a more widely used mechanic, CON saves could be a big deal.

Yeah. There should also be some concentration based non-spell abilities, including Rage, certain fighter tactics, and other features, which would make Constitution useful for things other than Hit Points so it doesn't become the worst stat if a change proposed in this thread became the base.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Well, MAD classes are balanced in part around the devs knowing you won't be able to max your key stats. So while I agree that making CON unnecessary helps MAD classes more than others, I'm not sure that should be considered an argument in favor of doing it.

They could change other things to make sure the classes stay balanced, too. If letting everyone use the stats they're supposed to be good at to give them hit points (which are ambiguous in 5e, but for some reason still Con-based, and this change just makes sense by the 5e definition of hit points) breaks the balance of the game, the game wasn't designed well enough.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

If you want to let some people dump it with zero consequences, then there should also be a class which needs it as their primary stat, or else it doesn't have a reason to exist.

To fix this, how about making Sorcerers use Constitution as their casting stat? If their magic is innate and there are literally features dedicated to your blood and you get proficiency in Con saves, it just makes sense to have them fully Constitution based. It could also be important for other classes and subclasses (Blood Hunters, Barbarians, Long Death Monks, etc), and become as balanced and important as every other ability score (assuming they fix Strength and Intelligence).

Also, dumping a stat that your class isn't dependent on doesn't make there be zero consequences to dumping that stat. Paladins, Fighters, and other Heavy Armor-wearers can dump Dex into negative modifiers, but they still face consequences for not having good Dex (saving throws, initiative, skills).

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

or,

remove CON and paste it's mechanics to STR.

Highly unlikely. D&D has had the six main ability scores for long enough that is has become practically inseparable from D&D, so dropping an ability score is unimaginable for me (even renaming an ability score seems basically impossible, i.e. Wisdom).

 

[The Crimson Binome]

To fix this, how about making Sorcerers use Constitution as their casting stat? If their magic is innate and there are literally features dedicated to your blood and you get proficiency in Con saves, it just makes sense to have them fully Constitution based.

Honestly, while it could work from a game balance perspective, I'm not really the right audience for that sort of thing. I've never been down with anyone being able to substitute one stat for another, in any circumstances.

Also, dumping a stat that your class isn't dependent on doesn't make there be zero consequences to dumping that stat. Paladins, Fighters, and other Heavy Armor-wearers can dump Dex into negative modifiers, but they still face consequences for not having good Dex (saving throws, initiative, skills).

That's just because Dexterity is broken, and does too many. If Constitution only gave as much benefit as Wisdom, it could be dumped just as safely.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Honestly, while it could work from a game balance perspective, I'm not really the right audience for that sort of thing. I've never been down with anyone being able to substitute one stat for another, in any circumstances.

Not a fan of Hexblades/Shillelagh/Battlesmiths, huh?

Every other stat has at least two classes based around it, but Constitution has none, because of the wonky "balance" between the ability scores in 5e. If you want to truly balance all the ability scores in the game, as well as making hit points have a bit of a refined definition, it's probably a good idea to make hit points use the ability scores your class focuses around and have there be classes/subclasses that focus on using Constitution.

That's just because Dexterity is broken, and does too much. If Constitution only gave as much benefit as Wisdom, it could be dumped just as safely.

(fixed a type for you)
Yes, Dexterity is unbalanced compared to other ability scores. Most characters tend to have higher Dexterity than Constitution, in my experience.

Also, a paladin may think that they can dump Wisdom safely, until you're ambushed by bandits or fall into an obscured pit trap. Ability scores should have a major passive use and major situational use, IMHO. Dexterity is passively used for Armor Class, but situationally used for Initiative. Strength is passively used for carrying capacity, but situationally used for shoving/grappling. Constitution only gives the passive benefit of hit points (which I think should be changed) and its situational uses are minor ones that almost every other ability score shares; Constitution saving throws, holding your breath, and the very rare Athletics (Con) checks for swimming.

If they were to try and rebalance the ability scores, they would have to give CON major passive and situational uses. Passive ones could be hit points for certain classes, an Exhaustion buffer (adding the amount of Exhaustion you can take before you get negative consequences from it), and other uses (my mind is blank at the moment). Situational ones could be an Endurance skill, an increased amount of Concentration abilities, an increased amount of non-spell Constitution saves, and being used for Death Saving Throws (which need a bit of tweaking too, IMO).

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Also, a paladin may think that they can dump Wisdom safely, until you're ambushed by bandits or fall into an obscured pit trap.

You can give your paladin a 12 in Wisdom, and I'll keep mine at an 8, and nine-times-out-of-ten it won't make a difference. It's just too rare for any stat to be checked against, unless you choose to invoke it every round of combat. The ability to substitute ability scores, so you can always use your highest stat, only exacerbates the usage disparity.

Given my preference, I'd redesign classes and stats to encourage everyone to choose to invoke each stat, at least some of the time. For example, the wizard should have a reason to want to swing their staff, at least some of the time, and throw a dagger at other times. That still leaves Constitution with a problem, as an entirely passive ability that you can't just choose to invoke. (Maybe if you went full 4E, and tied it into your a "second wind" style power, but I'm sure I don't have to explain why I would find that to be unsatisfactory.)

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

You can give your paladin a 12 in Wisdom, and I'll keep mine at an 8, and nine-times-out-of-ten it won't make a difference. It's just too rare for any stat to be checked against, unless you choose to invoke it every round of combat. The ability to substitute ability scores, so you can always use your highest stat, only exacerbates the usage disparity.

But there's still a larger chance of damage/death if you dump Wisdom to an 8 than if you were to have a 12 (and Wisdom saving throws are one of the most common in the game, so an important Wisdom based check/save happening every turn is not an outrageous thing to happen this edition).

Given my preference, I'd redesign classes and stats to encourage everyone to choose to invoke each stat, at least some of the time. For example, the wizard should have a reason to want to swing their staff, at least some of the time, and throw a dagger at other times. That still leaves Constitution with a problem, as an entirely passive ability that you can't just choose to invoke. (Maybe if you went full 4E, and tied it into your a "second wind" style power, but I'm sure I don't have to explain why I would find that to be unsatisfactory.)

I agree that each stat should be important to each character, but I think that each ability score should be relatively equally important to them (besides their main stats, of course).