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New Bill to Limit Copyright to 56 Years, Would be Retroactive

Ryujin

Legend
Definitely more defensible. I'm still not sure it's true, though.
Then consider this: A completely open model for IP only really benefits those with the money to capitalize upon an IP. If, for example, Doc Smith's Lensmen series was suddenly available to all, who would stand to make more profit from it; the Smith family, or Disney? Who would essentially have the credit for it, given that the majority of movie goers wouldn't have read the seminal work? That's just one I've pulled out of thin air, but you could just as easily say GRRM and "Game of Thrones." Why would HBO have paid for it, of they could just, you know, take it? And there are thousands of excellent writers, with good ideas, that could simply be used by large studios without compensating the creator. That just doesn't sit right with me. As I've said in other posts, I have suffered from the, "It's on the internet, so it must be free!" mindset with my own IP.
 

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Staffan

Legend
Yes, the people who actually did the work.
I put in a day's work, I get a day's pay. I don't get paid again for the same work later.

From my point of view, copyright is unnatural. The natural state of an idea or a creative work is that anyone should be able to build upon it. If I use a sample from a song someone wrote in a song I write, that does not diminish the original. Both can co-exist without any problem.

This is unlike physical property. Let's take a bike, for example. In most cases, only one person can ride a bike at a time. If I'm riding a bike, my friend can't ride the same bike at the same time. They either need to get their own bike, or they can borrow mine in which case I can't ride it while they have it. The bike is a scarce resource. It makes sense to have ownership of the bike, because that means the owner gets to decide who uses it at any one time.

But an idea or a piece of art is fundamentally not. If I listen to a song, nothing prevents a friend I'm having over from listening to the same song. We can both listen to the song at the same time, and you could even say that the shared experience adds to the benefit of the song. Maybe we'll even sing along, adding our own interpretations to the song, or dance, or whatever. Either way, that song is an unlimited resource. It can be shared infinitely. It may be tied to a physical artifact like a record in which case that particular artifact is a limited resource, but the song itself can be copied and listened to into infinity.

Copyright imposes an artificial scarcity on creative works. It's like if we had a machine that could produce unlimited amounts of food at zero cost, and someone wanted to ban it because it would screw over the farmers.

But since we currently don't have infinite zero-cost food, artists need to get paid to eat, and until we can get to the stage of fully automated luxury space communism copyright seems to be the least bad solution. But it should be limited to not do more damage to the common cultural cache than necessary.

As I’ve repeatedly pointed out, copyright prevents/limits copying something too closely, but not actual creativity. Let’s be honest here: what is more creative, copying someone’s work exactly and making a few changes to tell a story or doing an identifiable homage that tells the same tale?
Both can be creative. But one lowers the bar to letting your own creativity flow, because it lets you build upon things that already exist and focus on the things that you yourself add to the mix. If I can publish adventures for the Forgotten Realms without Wizards' permission, I can focus on making a kick-ass adventure instead of having to build the whole setting where the adventure takes place.
Suggest some.
Start by creating a good social safety net and a decent healthcare system.
Most of the ways in which copyrighted material generates income are directly related to the copyright itself. The big bucks for musicians come from songwriting royalties, concerts and merchandise, nor record sales. Of those, only concerts don’t require control of a copyright to be an income stream for the IP creator. And musicians like Jason Becker (ALS rendered him a paraplegic) cannot perform.
Again, build a civilized society where you don't starve just because you can't work.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
Then consider this: A completely open model for IP only really benefits those with the money to capitalize upon an IP. If, for example, Doc Smith's Lensmen series was suddenly available to all, who would stand to make more profit from it; the Smith family, or Disney? Who would essentially have the credit for it, given that the majority of movie goers wouldn't have read the seminal work? That's just one I've pulled out of thin air, but you could just as easily say GRRM and "Game of Thrones." Why would HBO have paid for it, of they could just, you know, take it? And there are thousands of excellent writers, with good ideas, that could simply be used by large studios without compensating the creator. That just doesn't sit right with me. As I've said in other posts, I have suffered from the, "It's on the internet, so it must be free!" mindset with my own IP.
Why would HBO or Disney make a TV series or Movie if there was no IP protection? Wouldn't it immediately appear online somewhere for free (or at least skipping through a couple ads)? Why would anyone not just watch it their?
 

Ryujin

Legend
Why would HBO or Disney make a TV series or Movie if there was no IP protection? Wouldn't it immediately appear online somewhere for free (or at least skipping through a couple ads)? Why would anyone not just watch it their?
Thank you. I said that only the big boys could stand to make a profit. I didn't say that they would. I was waiting for the natural flow of the idea ;)
 

Ryujin

Legend
I put in a day's work, I get a day's pay. I don't get paid again for the same work later.

From my point of view, copyright is unnatural. The natural state of an idea or a creative work is that anyone should be able to build upon it. If I use a sample from a song someone wrote in a song I write, that does not diminish the original. Both can co-exist without any problem.

This is unlike physical property. Let's take a bike, for example. In most cases, only one person can ride a bike at a time. If I'm riding a bike, my friend can't ride the same bike at the same time. They either need to get their own bike, or they can borrow mine in which case I can't ride it while they have it. The bike is a scarce resource. It makes sense to have ownership of the bike, because that means the owner gets to decide who uses it at any one time.

But an idea or a piece of art is fundamentally not. If I listen to a song, nothing prevents a friend I'm having over from listening to the same song. We can both listen to the song at the same time, and you could even say that the shared experience adds to the benefit of the song. Maybe we'll even sing along, adding our own interpretations to the song, or dance, or whatever. Either way, that song is an unlimited resource. It can be shared infinitely. It may be tied to a physical artifact like a record in which case that particular artifact is a limited resource, but the song itself can be copied and listened to into infinity.

Copyright imposes an artificial scarcity on creative works. It's like if we had a machine that could produce unlimited amounts of food at zero cost, and someone wanted to ban it because it would screw over the farmers.

But since we currently don't have infinite zero-cost food, artists need to get paid to eat, and until we can get to the stage of fully automated luxury space communism copyright seems to be the least bad solution. But it should be limited to not do more damage to the common cultural cache than necessary.


Both can be creative. But one lowers the bar to letting your own creativity flow, because it lets you build upon things that already exist and focus on the things that you yourself add to the mix. If I can publish adventures for the Forgotten Realms without Wizards' permission, I can focus on making a kick-ass adventure instead of having to build the whole setting where the adventure takes place.

Start by creating a good social safety net and a decent healthcare system.

Again, build a civilized society where you don't starve just because you can't work.
As has already been stated, creative work isn't the same as regular labour. What would you say if your employer told you, "I didn't like the expression on your face today, while you were building that deck, so you're not getting paid"? What if that was the rule, rather than the exception; that your income came at the whim of your employer? Intellectual property is something that's far more difficult to quantify, or codify, than any sort of specific labour, and that's why we have/need specific laws to deal with it.

Also, as I have previously said here, without the ability to survive as a creative, there is no incentive to be one. OK, so you might have a bunch of people moonlighting as painters, or all of the actors might really be the stereotype; wait staff who are "also" actors, just waiting for that big break. That, in your scenario, will literally never come.

If we had that machine that could create infinite food, for zero cost, then you might have a situation in which creatives were willing to work for the air that they breathe. That's Star Trek, not our world.
 
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billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
So, why do I have the feeling from most posts in this thread that an IP, and the revenues and control that comes with it, should not be in some way passed down to the next generations? Don't we want to encourage individuals to be creative? It seems unfair to me that all the work my father did, and wish to pass to me would become public domain shortly after and that then anyone, like my neighbour or someone with more means than me, could exploit that IP and profit from it.
I want to emphasize that this would be work your father did. Not you. The question comes up - how much or even why should you be able to profit from his work at all?

This is one of those issues at the heart of the copyright persistence debate with respect to an individual's IP rights. Does society owe exclusive rights to a copyrighted work to someone other than the author? I think the +20 years is a perfectly reasonable duration to cover an author's typical dependents until they're likely to be of the age of majority and no longer dependents. But beyond that? I think it's a fair question.

The question becomes even more important with respect to corporations owning IP rights, particularly given the long tail they currently have after the death of the creator. Universal Music will have Bob Dylan's music under their control for, what, 70 years after his death? And they'll be able to milk that pretty thoroughly with the kind of resources (and lobbyists) only a large corporation has access to.
 

Ryujin

Legend
I want to emphasize that this would be work your father did. Not you. The question comes up - how much or even why should you be able to profit from his work at all?

This is one of those issues at the heart of the copyright persistence debate with respect to an individual's IP rights. Does society owe exclusive rights to a copyrighted work to someone other than the author? I think the +20 years is a perfectly reasonable duration to cover an author's typical dependents until they're likely to be of the age of majority and no longer dependents. But beyond that? I think it's a fair question.

The question becomes even more important with respect to corporations owning IP rights, particularly given the long tail they currently have after the death of the creator. Universal Music will have Bob Dylan's music under their control for, what, 70 years after his death? And they'll be able to milk that pretty thoroughly with the kind of resources (and lobbyists) only a large corporation has access to.
+20 is probably a reasonable time period, but I have come to see that there does need to be something beyond the death of the creator. I would even be swayed to agreeing with a longer period, by a suitably well reasoned debate.

See? People can be swayed by internet debate :ROFLMAO:

IP is more ephemeral than liquid or real assets. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be some sort of legacy involved. It is still "property" after all.
 


+20 is probably a reasonable time period, but I have come to see that there does need to be something beyond the death of the creator. I would even be swayed to agreeing with a longer period, by a suitably well reasoned debate.

creator's life+20 would put the length a copyright lasts after the creator dies in the same ballpark as how long a patent lasts in total. And there's certainly no issue with patents not lasting long enough.
 


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